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Zunino anyone?

Zunino anyone?

PostPost #1 by docjj » April 17th, 2012, 1:35 pm

I was in favor of one of the highly rated pitchers initially. We already have Wieters, so Zunino, on the surface, doesn't make sense.

But consider this: Wieters will be a free agent in a couple of years. If we took Zunino, he could become a suitable replacement for Wieters and be ready for the Big Leagues about the time Wieters will depart in free agency. Plus, we could trade Wieters for a boatload of young prospects before he hits free agency (assuming Wieters continues to put up big numbers and blossoms into a superstar.) (I'm assuming Wieters won't re-sign with the O's, he'd leave for bigger $$$ that NY, Bos, Cal, Tex, etc can throw at him.)

Just food for thought....
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Re: Zunino anyone?

PostPost #2 by CSPitt17130 » April 17th, 2012, 4:43 pm

None of that should factor into the decision. You draft best player available. If Zunino is there at #4, he'd be in the discussion for BPA.
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Re: Zunino anyone?

PostPost #3 by OriolesRedskins28 » April 17th, 2012, 5:10 pm

I think Wieters will resign here assuming they improve as a franchise over the next few years. He's not a guy I would want to see leave the team under any circumstances, his leadership can not be underestimated.

Another reason we don't need to draft a catcher is Gabriel Lino. I know it's early in the year but he's a teenager and he's crushing Single A thus far so if we're talking about a potential replacement for Wieters (only when he has to move off the position eventually) I think Lino is a good option.

I do agree with the best player available approach though so if Zunino is THAT good then by all means take him. How is his defense? Maybe he could be converted to 3B and still be an elite prospect...
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Re: Zunino anyone?

PostPost #4 by CSPitt17130 » April 17th, 2012, 5:35 pm

OriolesRedskins28 wrote:Another reason we don't need to draft a catcher is Gabriel Lino. I know it's early in the year but he's a teenager and he's crushing Single A thus far so if we're talking about a potential replacement for Wieters (only when he has to move off the position eventually) I think Lino is a good option.


NO. Lino will have no effect on who the Orioles draft. Neither will any singular prospect, even the Orioles' elite ones like Machado and Bundy.

OriolesRedskins28 wrote:I do agree with the best player available approach though so if Zunino is THAT good then by all means take him. How is his defense? Maybe he could be converted to 3B and still be an elite prospect...


Much of Zunino's value is tied his ability to stay behind the plate and play above average defense. Moving him that far down the defensive spectrum to 3rd destroys his value as an elite prospect. He's nowhere near top 4-pick-worthy if he had to move out from behind the plate.
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Re: Zunino anyone?

PostPost #5 by Don » April 17th, 2012, 6:03 pm

I will save the debate. Zunino is either going 2 or 3 from everything I am seeing unfold in my area.
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Re: Zunino anyone?

PostPost #6 by DougDE » April 17th, 2012, 6:41 pm

OriolesRedskins28 wrote:I think Wieters will resign here assuming they improve as a franchise over the next few years

That will have virtually nothing to do with Wieters resigning here. He is a Boras client. Its ALL about the most money
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Re: Zunino anyone?

PostPost #7 by Rising O's » April 17th, 2012, 9:26 pm

He likely will not spend much time in the minors. The question for me would be if he can hit enough to be a DH/1B option with also being a back-up/half time C. From what I've read it seems he may not which as has been said leaves his blue chip value dipping at anything other than full time catcher.
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Re: Zunino anyone?

PostPost #8 by OriolesRedskins28 » April 17th, 2012, 10:35 pm

CSPitt17130 wrote:
OriolesRedskins28 wrote:Another reason we don't need to draft a catcher is Gabriel Lino. I know it's early in the year but he's a teenager and he's crushing Single A thus far so if we're talking about a potential replacement for Wieters (only when he has to move off the position eventually) I think Lino is a good option.


NO. Lino will have no effect on who the Orioles draft. Neither will any singular prospect, even the Orioles' elite ones like Machado and Bundy.

OriolesRedskins28 wrote:I do agree with the best player available approach though so if Zunino is THAT good then by all means take him. How is his defense? Maybe he could be converted to 3B and still be an elite prospect...


Much of Zunino's value is tied his ability to stay behind the plate and play above average defense. Moving him that far down the defensive spectrum to 3rd destroys his value as an elite prospect. He's nowhere near top 4-pick-worthy if he had to move out from behind the plate.


I could not disagree more. I seriously doubt the Orioles would consider a SS like Marrero even if hypothetically he were the best player available unless there was a large gap between his value and the next best available player's value. I was not saying that Lino would be the singular reason the O's would avoid drafting a catcher, I was responding to an earlier post that Zunino could be drafted as Wieters' replacement, so I mentioned Lino as an in house potential replacement down the line.

Of course moving Zunino down the defensive spectrum decreases his value. I don't know a lot about Zunino, only asking if he did have that type of offensive ability. Apparently not...

Don wrote:I will save the debate. Zunino is either going 2 or 3 from everything I am seeing unfold in my area.


Good to hear. That way a top prospect that would be a better fit for the O's will be pushed back one slot. It seems like it's going to be Appel/Buxton/Zunino 1 2 3 in some order.

DougDE wrote:
OriolesRedskins28 wrote:I think Wieters will resign here assuming they improve as a franchise over the next few years

That will have virtually nothing to do with Wieters resigning here. He is a Boras client. Its ALL about the most money


Forgot about that... Good point.
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Re: Zunino anyone?

PostPost #9 by CSPitt17130 » April 18th, 2012, 7:34 am

OriolesRedskins28 wrote:I could not disagree more. I seriously doubt the Orioles would consider a SS like Marrero even if hypothetically he were the best player available unless there was a large gap between his value and the next best available player's value. I was not saying that Lino would be the singular reason the O's would avoid drafting a catcher, I was responding to an earlier post that Zunino could be drafted as Wieters' replacement, so I mentioned Lino as an in house potential replacement down the line.

Of course moving Zunino down the defensive spectrum decreases his value. I don't know a lot about Zunino, only asking if he did have that type of offensive ability. Apparently not...



Why wouldn't the Orioles consider Marrero if he were the best player available?

Again, you don't draft based on need. You can't bank on the development of minor leaguers, the continued play of major leaguers, or whether or not a player will choose to sign an extension or leave via free agency. This isn't football or basketball where you can look at your roster and decide what player you need to sure up your lineup for a playoff run the following year. Nothing in baseball is a sure enough bet that you can factor any of that in to a draft decision. If the Orioles draft Zunino and in 2 years he's big league ready and in that time Wieters signs an extension and is still playing well, deal with that when you get there. It's a problem that every team would love to have.
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Re: Zunino anyone?

PostPost #10 by ofahn » April 18th, 2012, 10:50 am

CSPitt17130 wrote:Why wouldn't the Orioles consider Marrero if he were the best player available?

Again, you don't draft based on need. You can't bank on the development of minor leaguers, the continued play of major leaguers, or whether or not a player will choose to sign an extension or leave via free agency. This isn't football or basketball where you can look at your roster and decide what player you need to sure up your lineup for a playoff run the following year. Nothing in baseball is a sure enough bet that you can factor any of that in to a draft decision. If the Orioles draft Zunino and in 2 years he's big league ready and in that time Wieters signs an extension and is still playing well, deal with that when you get there. It's a problem that every team would love to have.


I understand the logic of that approach; however, I don't think this team is in the position to do that. If we were "prospect rich" then I would agree; but we have so many holes in our projected 2014 lineup that we should, if possible, draft towards filling them.

Would you agree that 3B, 1B, and RF will be potential problems in 2014? Since I don't see worthy college players available at those positions at 1 - 4 in this draft we should draft pitching which is the most desirable currency when trading with other teams. IMO if there's a pitcher with the same upside as a position player that would fill one of our holes, you go with the pitcher.

Of course, if we sign Soler and/or trade Jones then the picture changes. A lot can happen in seven weeks.
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Re: Zunino anyone?

PostPost #11 by OriolesRedskins28 » April 18th, 2012, 12:22 pm

CSPitt17130 wrote:
OriolesRedskins28 wrote:I could not disagree more. I seriously doubt the Orioles would consider a SS like Marrero even if hypothetically he were the best player available unless there was a large gap between his value and the next best available player's value. I was not saying that Lino would be the singular reason the O's would avoid drafting a catcher, I was responding to an earlier post that Zunino could be drafted as Wieters' replacement, so I mentioned Lino as an in house potential replacement down the line.

Of course moving Zunino down the defensive spectrum decreases his value. I don't know a lot about Zunino, only asking if he did have that type of offensive ability. Apparently not...



Why wouldn't the Orioles consider Marrero if he were the best player available?

Again, you don't draft based on need. You can't bank on the development of minor leaguers, the continued play of major leaguers, or whether or not a player will choose to sign an extension or leave via free agency. This isn't football or basketball where you can look at your roster and decide what player you need to sure up your lineup for a playoff run the following year. Nothing in baseball is a sure enough bet that you can factor any of that in to a draft decision. If the Orioles draft Zunino and in 2 years he's big league ready and in that time Wieters signs an extension and is still playing well, deal with that when you get there. It's a problem that every team would love to have.


No you don't draft based on need but if there is no huge gap between the BPA who happens to be a SS and the next best player then you should lean toward taking the next player assuming all else being equal. When there are a ton of other holes in the organization, drafting a SS is NOT the way to go. The organization actually has some decent depth at the position moving forward with both Machado and Schoop capable of playing SS, so why would you spend an all important top 5 draft pick on ANOTHER SS?

Unless of course there is a large gap between the potential/ability of that SS and the next BPA in which case I would say take the SS.

I agree with ofahn that when in doubt, pitching is the way to go. You can never have enough pitching depth. Drafting another stud SS prospect would not help the organization in a big way compared to a SP/position of need. I would greatly prefer a stud SP over a stud SS (or C) in the draft this year.

In reality the O's should draft the player they like the most based on their specific criteria, regardless of position. But again if a SS is viewed more highly than a SP, as long as the gap isn't a large one, I would hope they would take the SP (or another position of need).
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Re: Zunino anyone?

PostPost #12 by CSPitt17130 » April 18th, 2012, 4:53 pm

ofahn wrote:
I understand the logic of that approach; however, I don't think this team is in the position to do that. If we were "prospect rich" then I would agree; but we have so many holes in our projected 2014 lineup that we should, if possible, draft towards filling them.

Would you agree that 3B, 1B, and RF will be potential problems in 2014? Since I don't see worthy college players available at those positions at 1 - 4 in this draft we should draft pitching which is the most desirable currency when trading with other teams. IMO if there's a pitcher with the same upside as a position player that would fill one of our holes, you go with the pitcher.

Of course, if we sign Soler and/or trade Jones then the picture changes. A lot can happen in seven weeks.


Are you really suggesting choosing a player based on what you think will be a need on the major league team in 2014 as if the player selected in 2012, who won't play until 2013 (unless he goes to the AFL), will be able to fill that role? How many of those guys (outside of bullpen arms) are even in any given draft? Three? Appel and Zunino are probably the only two who will be close to the majors in 2014.
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Re: Zunino anyone?

PostPost #13 by CSPitt17130 » April 18th, 2012, 5:03 pm

OriolesRedskins28 wrote:
No you don't draft based on need but if there is no huge gap between the BPA who happens to be a SS and the next best player then you should lean toward taking the next player assuming all else being equal. When there are a ton of other holes in the organization, drafting a SS is NOT the way to go. The organization actually has some decent depth at the position moving forward with both Machado and Schoop capable of playing SS, so why would you spend an all important top 5 draft pick on ANOTHER SS?

Unless of course there is a large gap between the potential/ability of that SS and the next BPA in which case I would say take the SS.

I agree with ofahn that when in doubt, pitching is the way to go. You can never have enough pitching depth. Drafting another stud SS prospect would not help the organization in a big way compared to a SP/position of need. I would greatly prefer a stud SP over a stud SS (or C) in the draft this year.

In reality the O's should draft the player they like the most based on their specific criteria, regardless of position. But again if a SS is viewed more highly than a SP, as long as the gap isn't a large one, I would hope they would take the SP (or another position of need).


Having more than one elite prospect at a premium position is never a problem. Machado is not a sure bet to stick at SS for very long, if at all. Yes, he has the skills and arm to play short but until he stops growing, no one will know. On the other hand, everyone is pretty sure that Schoop will not be able to play short. Is that the great depth at SS that you're speaking of? No positional prospect or major leaguer in the O's organization is such a sure bet to be so good for so long that it should have any effect on who the Orioles draft.
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Re: Zunino anyone?

PostPost #14 by OriolesRedskins28 » April 18th, 2012, 6:11 pm

CSPitt17130 wrote:
OriolesRedskins28 wrote:

Having more than one elite prospect at a premium position is never a problem. Machado is not a sure bet to stick at SS for very long, if at all. Yes, he has the skills and arm to play short but until he stops growing, no one will know. On the other hand, everyone is pretty sure that Schoop will not be able to play short. Is that the great depth at SS that you're speaking of? No positional prospect or major leaguer in the O's organization is such a sure bet to be so good for so long that it should have any effect on who the Orioles draft.


Really? Everyone is pretty sure that Schoop will not be able to play short? Maybe you should read the scouting report on THIS website on Schoop done by Don Olsen. Here's an excerpt, "More than enough arm for the left side of the infield, and is a relatively safe bet to stick at either shortstop or third base".

While Don's view may have changed since then and even in that report he does mention that Schoop may have to move off SS depending on how he fills out, that would still go against the "Everyone is pretty sure that Schoop will not be able to play short" statement.

The O's also have JJ Hardy at SS and Robert Andino who can handle SS so I would definitely say they have some depth at the position. Yet again, I'm not saying that this should preclude them from drafting a SS but if a SS like Marrero is considered the best player available but the gap between him and the next best player available on the Orioles' radar isn't that large then they should go with the player that better fits their organizational needs. Same thing goes with Catcher and Zunino, unless Zunino were viewed by the O's as much more valuable than their next viable option then I would pass on him. Again this taking all things in to consideration (skills, positional value, intangibles etc.) and is all hypothetical.

I would imagine that EVERY professional baseball organization takes a look at their own organizational depth chart before they make their first round draft selection. Everyone does their due diligence. Drafting the best available player is always the way to go, but if there isn't a large gap between two players and one fits the organization's needs better than the other, the player with the better fit is the way to go.
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Re: Zunino anyone?

PostPost #15 by CSPitt17130 » April 18th, 2012, 6:26 pm

OriolesRedskins28 wrote:Really? Everyone is pretty sure that Schoop will not be able to play short? Maybe you should read the scouting report on THIS website on Schoop done by Don Olsen. Here's an excerpt, "More than enough arm for the left side of the infield, and is a relatively safe bet to stick at either shortstop or third base".

While Don's view may have changed since then and even in that report he does mention that Schoop may have to move off SS depending on how he fills out, that would still go against the "Everyone is pretty sure that Schoop will not be able to play short" statement.

The O's also have JJ Hardy at SS and Robert Andino who can handle SS so I would definitely say they have some depth at the position. Yet again, I'm not saying that this should preclude them from drafting a SS but if a SS like Marrero is considered the best player available but the gap between him and the next best player available on the Orioles' radar isn't that large then they should go with the player that better fits their organizational needs. Same thing goes with Catcher and Zunino, unless Zunino were viewed by the O's as much more valuable than their next viable option then I would pass on him. Again this taking all things in to consideration (skills, positional value, intangibles etc.) and is all hypothetical.

I would imagine that EVERY professional baseball organization takes a look at their own organizational depth chart before they make their first round draft selection. Everyone does their due diligence. Drafting the best available player is always the way to go, but if there isn't a large gap between two players and one fits the organization's needs better than the other, the player with the better fit is the way to go.


That also says a "relatively safe bet to stick at SS OR 3rd." There is a huge gap between being able to stick at SS and being able to stick at 3rd. I think it's slightly misleading to lump them together, when realistically, a player could have gold glove potential at 3rd but could be well below average at SS. Machado is much better at short and many scouts aren't sure about his ability to stay at short longterm. What does that say about the chances that Schoop can?

And why would Hardy factor into the decision? He's not likely to be on the team by the time a SS drafted this year will be ready to make his debut.

I think organizational depth (not major league depth) plays a role in overall draft strategy, but not in a top 5 pick. You look for a superstar or perennial all-star when you're drafting that high, and if the scouts and scouting director see any difference in overall value between two players, regardless of position, you take the higher rated player.
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