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"Orioles interest in Prince Fielder is Angelos secret mandate"

Re: "Orioles interest in Prince Fielder is Angelos secret mandate"

PostPost #61 by birdwatcher55 » December 17th, 2011, 7:36 am

Does Fielder want to play in Baltimore?? To worried about competing in the AL East??? We need to step up and make him an offer he can't refuse. Trump ALL offers. We need to give this dying fan base a reason to believe again 8-)
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Re: "Orioles interest in Prince Fielder is Angelos secret mandate"

PostPost #62 by ofahn » December 17th, 2011, 10:20 am

birdwatcher55 wrote:Does Fielder want to play in Baltimore?? To worried about competing in the AL East??? We need to step up and make him an offer he can't refuse. Trump ALL offers. We need to give this dying fan base a reason to believe again 8-)


Or shoot ourselves in the foot while setting ourselves on fire, You know, whichever move we think can ruin our future the most.
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Re: "Orioles interest in Prince Fielder is Angelos secret mandate"

PostPost #63 by A_K » December 19th, 2011, 7:14 pm

birdwatcher55 wrote:Does Fielder want to play in Baltimore?? To worried about competing in the AL East??? We need to step up and make him an offer he can't refuse. Trump ALL offers. We need to give this dying fan base a reason to believe again 8-)


God damn I hate when people speak for me.

I know you mean no harm, birdwatcher55, and that we all ultimately have the same desire. But I hate reading "we need to give this dying fan base a reason to believe again," or any other blanket statement of what the fans want, without acknowledging that there are plenty of fans who want no such thing. I'd never presume to speak for the entire fan base, knowing that my opinion can't possibly cover the millions of people who count the O's as their favorite team.
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Re: "Orioles interest in Prince Fielder is Angelos secret mandate"

PostPost #64 by birdwatcher55 » December 20th, 2011, 12:25 pm

ofahn wrote:
birdwatcher55 wrote:Does Fielder want to play in Baltimore?? To worried about competing in the AL East??? We need to step up and make him an offer he can't refuse. Trump ALL offers. We need to give this dying fan base a reason to believe again 8-)


Or shoot ourselves in the foot while setting ourselves on fire, You know, whichever move we think can ruin our future the most.

That kind of thinking is a reason we've been asleep at the wheel for the past 14 years. Please WAKE UP!!! 8-)
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Re: "Orioles interest in Prince Fielder is Angelos secret mandate"

PostPost #65 by birdwatcher55 » December 20th, 2011, 12:29 pm

A_K wrote:
birdwatcher55 wrote:Does Fielder want to play in Baltimore?? To worried about competing in the AL East??? We need to step up and make him an offer he can't refuse. Trump ALL offers. We need to give this dying fan base a reason to believe again 8-)


God damn I hate when people speak for me.

I know you mean no harm, birdwatcher55, and that we all ultimately have the same desire. But I hate reading "we need to give this dying fan base a reason to believe again," or any other blanket statement of what the fans want, without acknowledging that there are plenty of fans who want no such thing. I'd never presume to speak for the entire fan base, knowing that my opinion can't possibly cover the millions of people who count the O's as their favorite team.


No harm; no foul from my perspective. I just look at where the Orioles are now and where they were in the Davy Johnson days and it is pathetic really. God Bless you for your never say die attitude. I once felt the same way but 14 years of this losing nonsense has made me quite jaded and yet realistic: the Orioles will never again compete seriously in the AL East in my lifetime and my friend I have been following the Birds for 50 years!!! 8-)
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Re: "Orioles interest in Prince Fielder is Angelos secret mandate"

PostPost #66 by A_K » December 20th, 2011, 12:45 pm

I agree that the Orioles will never compete in my lifetime. And that's a much more tragic statement coming from me, considering I'm still in my twenties. However, the primary reason I think this is the case is because I know that Peter Angelos will never green light the sort of front office mentality that's required for a franchise like the Orioles to be competitive in the AL East. Writing a massive check for Prince Fielder might feel like a meaningful commitment, but it'd just be wallpaper over top of moldy drywall.
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Re: "Orioles interest in Prince Fielder is Angelos secret mandate"

PostPost #67 by ofahn » December 20th, 2011, 1:00 pm

birdwatcher55 wrote:That kind of thinking is a reason we've been asleep at the wheel for the past 14 years. Please WAKE UP!!! 8-)


Wait. Let me get this straight. You think that GROSSLY over paying for one player who WON'T fill the holes in the pitching staff, WON'T fill the hole at 2B, and WON'T fill the hole at 3B is a GOOD idea and would improve the team?

REALLY?

It's not April Fools, is it?
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Re: "Orioles interest in Prince Fielder is Angelos secret mandate"

PostPost #68 by ofahn » December 20th, 2011, 1:03 pm

A_K wrote:I agree that the Orioles will never compete in my lifetime. And that's a much more tragic statement coming from me, considering I'm still in my twenties. However, the primary reason I think this is the case is because I know that Peter Angelos will never green light the sort of front office mentality that's required for a franchise like the Orioles to be competitive in the AL East. Writing a massive check for Prince Fielder might feel like a meaningful commitment, but it'd just be wallpaper over top of moldy drywall.


I don't think that the Orioles will compete in Peter Angelos' lifetime. Hopefully, you'll be around to disagree with me for a long time beyond that.
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Re: "Orioles interest in Prince Fielder is Angelos secret mandate"

PostPost #69 by birdwatcher55 » December 20th, 2011, 1:06 pm

Fielder is a STARTING POINT for the spending. This organization, backed by MASN, is rolling in money. Don't fool yourself. If the Orioles want to be serious players, they could get very serious my friend. They simply don't want to $pend. It's really that simple 8-)
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Re: "Orioles interest in Prince Fielder is Angelos secret mandate"

PostPost #70 by ofahn » December 20th, 2011, 1:32 pm

birdwatcher55 wrote:Fielder is a STARTING POINT for the spending. This organization, backed by MASN, is rolling in money. Don't fool yourself. If the Orioles want to be serious players, they could get very serious my friend. They simply don't want to $pend. It's really that simple 8-)


OK. Just for a minute let's assume that the Cubs are at 6/160 which means the Nationals would have to offer 7/180 and the Orioles would then have to offer 8/200 to even be considered. IF Fielder took our offer you already have to write off at least 50M of it as unproductive. Alright, you've now added Prince Fielder to a team that doesn't have a ML 3B unless you want to put Mark Reynolds back there. You know, the guy who fielded the position like they were shooting RPGs at him.

Now, 2B. Right now we're probably going to staff that position with prospects, suspects, and utility guys. But, of course, none of that really matters if we don't get good starting pitching. Which of our starting pitcher candidates do you think will be an All Star? Too high a bar? OK, which one(s) do you think will pitch at least 200 innings? Right, maybe Guthrie but after him? Yeah, I thought so. And, of course, if we don't trade Guthrie, now, we'll lose him for almost nothing next winter.

So, this Fielder plan. How does it stock the farm system? Because we don't have much talent above A ball right now which means we won't be surrounding Fielder with much home grown talent until around 2014. Of course, we could make trades but which players do you want to give up to get that ML ready talent? Wieters? Britton? Kind of defeats the purpose, doesn't it?

You build winning teams by designing the arrival of LOTS of young talent at the same time. By trading Jones, Hardy, and Guthrie right now we can add enough talent to our farm system to have a wave of quality young players arrive in 2014. Careful trading, impact international signings, and well considered drafting from this point on will allow us to maintain a winning team. If you want to get passionate about something get passionate about THAT.
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Re: "Orioles interest in Prince Fielder is Angelos secret mandate"

PostPost #71 by A_K » December 20th, 2011, 1:45 pm

birdwatcher55 wrote:Fielder is a STARTING POINT for the spending. This organization, backed by MASN, is rolling in money. Don't fool yourself. If the Orioles want to be serious players, they could get very serious my friend. They simply don't want to $pend. It's really that simple 8-)


The only way that Prince Fielder would make sense as a STARTING POINT would be if subsequent moves included signing the most expensive free agent pitchers (at least two, probably more like four), second base, third base, left field, and at least two relievers. That'd take our payroll beyond that of the New York Yankees.

I'm not saying the Orioles should never pay market rate (that is, overpay) for a premier player. What I'm saying is they shouldn't pay market rate (again, translation: overpay) for a premier player right now. There are just too many holes, and not enough in-house options to fill them.

If the O's were to sign Fielder, he'd be around for a while. I get that. But for that long while he'd restrict what they'd be able to do on the free agent market, meaning that the majority of improvement at other positions would need to be internal. Let's say they can trade Hardy in two years for a competent third baseman, and Machado can step in on day one as a shortstop, while Schoop steps in at the same time as a competitive 2B. At that point, we've basically expended our farm system. Maybe Bundy steps in and is an ace from day one, like Tim Lincecum. And Matusz also returns to his pre-2010 trajectory, and is a viable starter. Let's also say that Arrieta finds some control and consistency and is also a viable starter. Guthrie would be an old man by this point, but let's pretend that he's found some Jamie Moyer-esque late career success. Let's also say that a bunch of our low level reliever prospects pan out and form a solid bullpen, along with Jim Johnson. Wieters is a stud behind the plate as well. And we re-signed Adam Jones, which means giving him a massive contract, and we're still paying Nick Markakis $15 mill a year, and he's miraculously returned to his pre-2007 trajectory, so he's not drastically overpaid anymore. And because so many things went right, Angelos agreed to up the budget and shelled out for a legitimate starting LF (or, Reimold somehow developed into a stud. Take your pick).

That's the hypothetical situation in which signing Fielder makes sense. To me, it's a bit of a longshot to invest $150 million into.

Meanwhile, trading relatively valuable veteran assets for prospects, while reinvesting the saved money into the minor league system, is a proven rebuilding plan that seems to be embraced and understood by virtually every franchise in the sport, except for the one we root for. It's nice to think that major financial investment in free agency is a panacea that can immediately reverse 14 years of frustration, but we know empirically that that's not the case. For as satisfying as it is to point to the Yankees and Red Sox and say that they win because they spend, the truth is that their spending occurs on top of a solid organizational foundation that put the majority of pieces in place. We aren't there. Not even close.

At this point, I regard demands for free agent spending to be little more than populist rage. It's satisfying to think that if it weren't for this greedy SOB who is pocketing all the profits and suckering the fans, everything would be OK. The reality is much more complicated, and requires a much more difficult solution.
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Re: "Orioles interest in Prince Fielder is Angelos secret mandate"

PostPost #72 by Matt P » December 20th, 2011, 1:54 pm

They aren't going to sign him.
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Re: "Orioles interest in Prince Fielder is Angelos secret mandate"

PostPost #73 by ofahn » December 20th, 2011, 2:02 pm

A_K wrote:
birdwatcher55 wrote:Fielder is a STARTING POINT for the spending. This organization, backed by MASN, is rolling in money. Don't fool yourself. If the Orioles want to be serious players, they could get very serious my friend. They simply don't want to $pend. It's really that simple 8-)


The only way that Prince Fielder would make sense as a STARTING POINT would be if subsequent moves included signing the most expensive free agent pitchers (at least two, probably more like four), second base, third base, left field, and at least two relievers. That'd take our payroll beyond that of the New York Yankees.

I'm not saying the Orioles should never pay market rate (that is, overpay) for a premier player. What I'm saying is they shouldn't pay market rate (again, translation: overpay) for a premier player right now. There are just too many holes, and not enough in-house options to fill them.

If the O's were to sign Fielder, he'd be around for a while. I get that. But for that long while he'd restrict what they'd be able to do on the free agent market, meaning that the majority of improvement at other positions would need to be internal. Let's say they can trade Hardy in two years for a competent third baseman, and Machado can step in on day one as a shortstop, while Schoop steps in at the same time as a competitive 2B. At that point, we've basically expended our farm system. Maybe Bundy steps in and is an ace from day one, like Tim Lincecum. And Matusz also returns to his pre-2010 trajectory, and is a viable starter. Let's also say that Arrieta finds some control and consistency and is also a viable starter. Guthrie would be an old man by this point, but let's pretend that he's found some Jamie Moyer-esque late career success. Let's also say that a bunch of our low level reliever prospects pan out and form a solid bullpen, along with Jim Johnson. Wieters is a stud behind the plate as well. And we re-signed Adam Jones, which means giving him a massive contract, and we're still paying Nick Markakis $15 mill a year, and he's miraculously returned to his pre-2007 trajectory, so he's not drastically overpaid anymore. And because so many things went right, Angelos agreed to up the budget and shelled out for a legitimate starting LF (or, Reimold somehow developed into a stud. Take your pick).

That's the hypothetical situation in which signing Fielder makes sense. To me, it's a bit of a longshot to invest $150 million into.

Meanwhile, trading relatively valuable veteran assets for prospects, while reinvesting the saved money into the minor league system, is a proven rebuilding plan that seems to be embraced and understood by virtually every franchise in the sport, except for the one we root for. It's nice to think that major financial investment in free agency is a panacea that can immediately reverse 14 years of frustration, but we know empirically that that's not the case. For as satisfying as it is to point to the Yankees and Red Sox and say that they win because they spend, the truth is that their spending occurs on top of a solid organizational foundation that put the majority of pieces in place. We aren't there. Not even close.

At this point, I regard demands for free agent spending to be little more than populist rage. It's satisfying to think that if it weren't for this greedy SOB who is pocketing all the profits and suckering the fans, everything would be OK. The reality is much more complicated, and requires a much more difficult solution.


I wish there was some way to award a gold star for the best post of the day.
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Re: "Orioles interest in Prince Fielder is Angelos secret mandate"

PostPost #74 by A_K » December 20th, 2011, 2:10 pm

Matt P wrote:They aren't going to sign him.

ofahn wrote:I wish there was some way to award a gold star for the best post of the day.


Matt P might actually be a bit more deserving, for reasons of brevity, reality and logic.
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Re: "Orioles interest in Prince Fielder is Angelos secret mandate"

PostPost #75 by ofahn » December 20th, 2011, 2:17 pm

A_K wrote:Matt P might actually be a bit more deserving, for reasons of brevity, reality and logic.


Sorry, IMO it's not even close.
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