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Analyzing Ubaldo Jimenez

Analyzing Ubaldo Jimenez

PostPost #1 by Tucker Blair » February 18th, 2014, 8:39 am

Alex with his take on Ubaldo Jimenez

Analyzing Ubaldo Jimenez http://bit.ly/MvcIEw
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Re: Analyzing Ubaldo Jimenez

PostPost #2 by Old Sneakers » February 19th, 2014, 12:47 am

Point taken on inflated pitch counts. Something all Oriole pitchers seem to struggle with.
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Re: Analyzing Ubaldo Jimenez

PostPost #3 by osforlife » February 20th, 2014, 8:22 pm

Postives;

1. We all know Jimenez is inconsistent, but when he is on, he is one of the best pitchers in the game. 2009-2010 Ubaldo Jimenez will be very valuable to the team. 2011-2012 Ubaldo Jimenez will not. Considering that Edwin Jackson, Matt Garza, and Ricky Nolasco practically received identical deals, and Jimenez by far has the highest upside, this could potentially be a steal. High Risk, High Reward...

2. This signing and the Yoon allows Gausman and Wright additional seasoning the minors. Before these two additions, it looked like they would be 5 & 6 in the rotation order. Hopefully, they are able to get in a full season at Norfolk. None of Baltimore's current starting pitchers are eligible for free agency soon, so maybe a trade will have to be done next off-season. Now the Orioles have four legitimate starters, and two questionables fighting for the 5th spot. It's good enough for me.

3. Hopefully, this eliminates the idiotic notion that Peter Angeles and the Orioles front office doesn't want to win. History has shown that when the attendance rises, the salary increases. The same will be true for the upcoming season.

Negatives;

1. Three years may have been better, but I'm honestly fine with the length of the deal. He's been very durable over his career, and on this current contract, he will not throw a pitch for the Orioles above the age of 33. Baltimore is basically getting the remaining years of his prime.

2. Losing the draft pick sucks, especially considering the Orioles aren't going to be able to make one of these deals every off-season. I understand the notion that the Orioles want to win now, so I get it. I wish Baltimore could have kept it, but the value could easily be negated with a few years of the good Ubaldo Jimenez.

Ultimately, the end result will come down to which Ubaldo shows up. Maybe Batimore gets a little of both. Further more, I wonder how this affects the way the front office looks at Kendry Morales. Giving up a second round pick is too hefty of a price for a solid hitter. Or how about Stephen Drew? I'd say he would cost less than Morales. He could complete the DH platoon, play a little second, back-up for short and third. I'd be more inclined to sign Drew.
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Re: Analyzing Ubaldo Jimenez

PostPost #4 by Old Sneakers » February 21st, 2014, 6:43 am

If the team gets 725 IP and a solid < 4.00 ERA out of this four year deal then it will have proven a great investment. I wanted the team to get a true inning eater. Jimenez, wasn't on my list for that need. However, he can absolutely make me eat crow. With luck he will. That said, osforlife hit the nail on the head with our prospects. Gausman, Wright, Rodriguez, Bundy and even Berry might have the time needed in the minors now. If that is the case, this team's rotation challenges it's faced for as long as I can remember could be a thing of the past. Especially if Bud Norris can put up a good season.

I'm a huge believer in and fan of the draft. That 17th pick is going to hurt, but I do understand this is sometimes part of deal. I just do not want this being standard practice.
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Re: Analyzing Ubaldo Jimenez

PostPost #5 by osforlife » February 21st, 2014, 4:02 pm

Old Sneakers wrote:I'm a huge believer in and fan of the draft. That 17th pick is going to hurt, but I do understand this is sometimes part of deal. I just do not want this being standard practice.

Exactly.
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Re: Analyzing Ubaldo Jimenez

PostPost #6 by ofahn » February 25th, 2014, 12:32 pm

osforlife wrote:Hopefully, this eliminates the idiotic notion that Peter Angeles and the Orioles front office doesn't want to win.

I'm a big critic of his ownership, but I still believe he wants to win. What I don't believe is that he has even a scintilla of a clue HOW to win.

In 1997 he had the best manager AND GM in baseball and chased them both away for reasons that can best be described as EGO. His hand picked replacement for Davey Johnson as manager took a team that was very similar to the 97 wins from the year before and turned it into 79 wins.

In 1999 his choice to replace Pat Gillick - Frank Wren - was denied the budget to hire the scouts or sign the players necessary to take advantage of a unique opportunity. In one of the worst performances in draft pick history the Orioles had seven of the first fifty picks and came away with just Brian Roberts while they passed on Alex Rios, Colby Lewis, Carl Crawford, Brandon Phillips, Ryan Doumit, John Lackey, and Justin Morneau in the first 90 picks among others in large part because of incomplete scouting reports and a lack of a budget to sign over-slot picks. Instead of learning a lesson about meddling and interfering in a process that, by this point, he should have known he knew nothing about, he instructed the FO to adjust their focus on "proven" players that performed like what they were - past their prime.

By the mid 2000s almost no one in baseball management with any real prospects wanted to work for him so he had a string of rookie managers that "blew him away" in interviews, but couldn't win with the over priced has beens, never were's, and other cast offs that were all that this team could attract. Keep in mind that there was virtually no real talent graduating from the farm system because Angelos wouldn't allow almost ANY investment in International talent, nor the farm system, nor building a proper player development system; AND he staffed the positions that over saw all of those processes with incompetent a@@ kissers. Syd Thrift, the GM he hired to replace Frank Wren (who has supervised some pretty decent drafts in Atlanta), complained that free agents acted like he was offering "Confederate money"; but the reality was players with other options didn't want to be part of an organization run the way ours was.

By mid 2007 Angelos' meddling had caused such a decline in attendance and MASN viewership that the team was no longer profitable so he brought in Andy MacPhail primarily to manage costs. AM sliced about 70M out of payroll over the next three seasons of which less than 10M went back into expanded player development despite the fact the team was little better than AAA quality and the farm system was barren.

AM actually made some quality trades that helped rebuild some value to the farm system, but Angelos insisted the team resign a fragile Brian Roberts instead of converting him into desperately needed prospects. The result was 40M wasted on a DL spot instead of being invested into rebuilding the farm system.

In 2010 Angelos insisted on Buck Showalter to replace Dave Trembley. He was right, and so is a broken clock twice a day.

In 2011 MacPhail was given instructions to add a fading Vladimir Guerrero in order to enhance fan interest at the cost of two farm teams and almost all of the International budget for that year.

In 2012 Angelos' reputation was so bad that the best GM candidates in the game wanted nothing to do with us so our FOURTH choice was Dan Duquette who hadn't held a ML position in ten years. This wasn't because Angelos had made a brilliant decision, we just got lucky. DD's contacts brought in some inexpensive quality players and the core of this team matured all at once. Combine that with an incredible string of luck and we ended a string of fourteen losing seasons and made the playoffs. Other than Buck as manager the 2012 season happened IN SPITE OF Angelos, not because of him.

This year Angelos authorized an additional 10M in payroll and DD has made the best of it. I hope for the sake of this franchise that this is a sign of ownership beginning to trust the people it has hired to run this team instead of meddling where he is clueless.
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Re: Analyzing Ubaldo Jimenez

PostPost #7 by Seafordeagles » February 25th, 2014, 12:49 pm

Lot of good points. Although the Roberts signing came after arguably his best season with league highs in doubles, career highs in home runs, rbis, runs, and games played. He was pretty durable and not fragile until after he signed that contract in February 2010. At the time of his signing he was the best player on the Baltimore Orioles.
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Re: Analyzing Ubaldo Jimenez

PostPost #8 by ofahn » February 25th, 2014, 2:59 pm

Seafordeagles wrote:Although the Roberts signing came after arguably his best season with league highs in doubles, career highs in home runs, rbis, runs, and games played. He was pretty durable and not fragile until after he signed that contract in February 2010. At the time of his signing he was the best player on the Baltimore Orioles.

Normally, that's the optimal time to trade someone; however, Roberts REALLY should have been traded the previous winter.

Roberts' back was a time bomb waiting to go before the extension. He would spend about 45 minutes prior to most games trying to loosen it up.
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Re: Analyzing Ubaldo Jimenez

PostPost #9 by Seafordeagles » February 25th, 2014, 3:49 pm

Thanks for the feedback. I guess we should have traded Cal during the optimal time as well.
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Re: Analyzing Ubaldo Jimenez

PostPost #10 by ofahn » February 25th, 2014, 5:02 pm

Seafordeagles wrote:Thanks for the feedback. I guess we should have traded Cal during the optimal time as well.

I'm ASTOUNDED you could draw that conclusion from what I wrote, particularly since it was two distinctly different times with two dramatically different sets of circumstances. I'll assume I won't need to point what they were.
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Re: Analyzing Ubaldo Jimenez

PostPost #11 by Seafordeagles » February 25th, 2014, 6:39 pm

Chill out man, take a joke and don't be so ASTOUNDED........................

I knew what you meant.
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Re: Analyzing Ubaldo Jimenez

PostPost #12 by osforlife » February 25th, 2014, 8:31 pm

ofahn wrote:I'm a big critic of his ownership, but I still believe he wants to win. What I don't believe is that he has even a scintilla of a clue HOW to win.

In 1997 he had the best manager AND GM in baseball and chased them both away for reasons that can best be described as EGO. His hand picked replacement for Davey Johnson as manager took a team that was very similar to the 97 wins from the year before and turned it into 79 wins.

In 1999 his choice to replace Pat Gillick - Frank Wren - was denied the budget to hire the scouts or sign the players necessary to take advantage of a unique opportunity. In one of the worst performances in draft pick history the Orioles had seven of the first fifty picks and came away with just Brian Roberts while they passed on Alex Rios, Colby Lewis, Carl Crawford, Brandon Phillips, Ryan Doumit, John Lackey, and Justin Morneau in the first 90 picks among others in large part because of incomplete scouting reports and a lack of a budget to sign over-slot picks. Instead of learning a lesson about meddling and interfering in a process that, by this point, he should have known he knew nothing about, he instructed the FO to adjust their focus on "proven" players that performed like what they were - past their prime.

By the mid 2000s almost no one in baseball management with any real prospects wanted to work for him so he had a string of rookie managers that "blew him away" in interviews, but couldn't win with the over priced has beens, never were's, and other cast offs that were all that this team could attract. Keep in mind that there was virtually no real talent graduating from the farm system because Angelos wouldn't allow almost ANY investment in International talent, nor the farm system, nor building a proper player development system; AND he staffed the positions that over saw all of those processes with incompetent a@@ kissers. Syd Thrift, the GM he hired to replace Frank Wren (who has supervised some pretty decent drafts in Atlanta), complained that free agents acted like he was offering "Confederate money"; but the reality was players with other options didn't want to be part of an organization run the way ours was.

By mid 2007 Angelos' meddling had caused such a decline in attendance and MASN viewership that the team was no longer profitable so he brought in Andy MacPhail primarily to manage costs. AM sliced about 70M out of payroll over the next three seasons of which less than 10M went back into expanded player development despite the fact the team was little better than AAA quality and the farm system was barren.

AM actually made some quality trades that helped rebuild some value to the farm system, but Angelos insisted the team resign a fragile Brian Roberts instead of converting him into desperately needed prospects. The result was 40M wasted on a DL spot instead of being invested into rebuilding the farm system.

In 2010 Angelos insisted on Buck Showalter to replace Dave Trembley. He was right, and so is a broken clock twice a day.

In 2011 MacPhail was given instructions to add a fading Vladimir Guerrero in order to enhance fan interest at the cost of two farm teams and almost all of the International budget for that year.

In 2012 Angelos' reputation was so bad that the best GM candidates in the game wanted nothing to do with us so our FOURTH choice was Dan Duquette who hadn't held a ML position in ten years. This wasn't because Angelos had made a brilliant decision, we just got lucky. DD's contacts brought in some inexpensive quality players and the core of this team matured all at once. Combine that with an incredible string of luck and we ended a string of fourteen losing seasons and made the playoffs. Other than Buck as manager the 2012 season happened IN SPITE OF Angelos, not because of him.

This year Angelos authorized an additional 10M in payroll and DD has made the best of it. I hope for the sake of this franchise that this is a sign of ownership beginning to trust the people it has hired to run this team instead of meddling where he is clueless.


1. Do you have inside information in Baltimore's management or something? How do you know Frank Wren was denied the budget to hire scouts? How do you know the scouting reports were incomplete? How do you know the front office was instructed to go after aging free agents? Were you there when he said it? Maybe baseball operations wanted to add veteran talent. How do you know no money was being put into the player development system? Do you have the financial spreadsheets? How do you know Macphail was instructed to sign Guerrero?

2. I think you place way too much value on a manager. Managers don't run, field, hit, or pitch. They put the nine best players on the field, which a middle school'r could do, and sub in relief pitchers. Any person with a stat book can put in the pitchers with the best match-up. I wasn't alive during the 1998 season, but I highly doubt a single manager was worth 19 wins. Do you think maybe, just maybe, the team regressed because the pitching ERA went from 3.91 to 4.74?

3. It's easy to look at hindsight and say the Brian Roberts extension was a bad investment. At the time of the extension, Brian Roberts was stealing bases, walking, hitting .290, and playing good defense. Natural regression was expected, but he had he stayed healthy, he would have been worth his contract. You wouldn't believe Baltimore should have traded Roberts at that point if he stayed healthy.
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Re: Analyzing Ubaldo Jimenez

PostPost #13 by Seafordeagles » February 25th, 2014, 8:42 pm

osforlife wrote:
1. Do you have inside information in Baltimore's management or something? How do you know Frank Wren was denied the budget to hire scouts? How do you know the scouting reports were incomplete? How do you know the front office was instructed to go after aging free agents? Were you there when he said it? Maybe baseball operations wanted to add veteran talent. How do you know no money was being put into the player development system? Do you have the financial spreadsheets? How do you know Macphail was instructed to sign Guerrero?

2. I think you place way too much value on a manager. Managers don't run, field, hit, or pitch. They put the nine best players on the field, which a middle school'r could do, and sub in relief pitchers. Any person with a stat book can put in the pitchers with the best match-up. I wasn't alive during the 1998 season, but I highly doubt a single manager was worth 19 wins. Do you think maybe, just maybe, the team regressed because the pitching ERA went from 3.91 to 4.74?

3. It's easy to look at hindsight and say the Brian Roberts extension was a bad investment. At the time of the extension, Brian Roberts was stealing bases, walking, hitting .290, and playing good defense. Natural regression was expected, but he had he stayed healthy, he would have been worth his contract. You wouldn't believe Baltimore should have traded Roberts at that point if he stayed healthy.


You just about had me until I read a little closer. I think you may want to re-visit this quote:

"They put the nine best players on the field, which a middle school'r could do, and sub in relief pitchers."

I certainly DO NOT AGREE with that statement. Since you were not born until after 1998 I think maybe you should due a little background on some of history's great mangers and see the effect they had on their team, the decisions they made, and the players that played for them.
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Re: Analyzing Ubaldo Jimenez

PostPost #14 by thezeroes » February 25th, 2014, 9:09 pm

Not picking any sides in this one but here is a little insight in Peter Angelos done by sports business daily. Like him or not I do believe he was a better choice as an owner than the Jeffrey Loria.

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Jour ... gelos.aspx
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Re: Analyzing Ubaldo Jimenez

PostPost #15 by Old Sneakers » February 26th, 2014, 2:10 am

All a fan can really ask of ownership
1-Learn from your mistakes
2-Have a clear long term plan
3-When in doubt, use wisdom
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