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What happens when Hammel returns?

What happens when Hammel returns?

PostPost #1 by Jordan Tuwiner » August 7th, 2013, 3:09 pm

With Tillman, Gonzalez, Norris, Chen, and Feldman in the rotation, what will happen when Hammel returns?

I see either Hammel or Norris heading to the bullpen. I think I'd rather see Hammel in the bullpen, but Buck likes his veterans so I think it's more likely that Norris will get moved.
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Re: What happens when Hammel returns?

PostPost #2 by ofahn » August 7th, 2013, 3:25 pm

Jordan Tuwiner wrote:I see either Hammel or Norris heading to the bullpen. I think I'd rather see Hammel in the bullpen, but Buck likes his veterans so I think it's more likely that Norris will get moved.


I had raised this question in an earlier post.

I agree that Hammel should be the one to move because he's gone at the end of the season and Norris is our future; like it or not. On the other hand moving Norris to the bullpen could be interesting. He could be like Hunter and be able to dial it up to about 98 or so for about 25 pitches.
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Re: What happens when Hammel returns?

PostPost #3 by Seafordeagles » August 7th, 2013, 3:36 pm

Norris, 2 starts, 2 wins. I find it highly unlikely that he is moved to the bullpen. Especially with that 2.25 ERA. He wasn't brought here to be a bullpen arm.

Hammel could be able to dial it up to about 98 or so for about 25 pitches as well used out of the bullpen.
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Re: What happens when Hammel returns?

PostPost #4 by Jordan Tuwiner » August 7th, 2013, 3:43 pm

Seafordeagles wrote:Norris, 2 starts, 2 wins. I find it highly unlikely that he is moved to the bullpen. Especially with that 2.25 ERA. He wasn't brought here to be a bullpen arm.

Hammel could be able to dial it up to about 98 or so for about 25 pitches as well used out of the bullpen.

Agreed, but Buck tends to favor veterans over younger players. I agree that Norris should stay because of his success but I don't think it's guaranteed that he will
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Re: What happens when Hammel returns?

PostPost #5 by Seafordeagles » August 7th, 2013, 4:02 pm

Do you mean veteran players or "new" players, because Norris is a veteran?
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Re: What happens when Hammel returns?

PostPost #6 by osforlife » August 7th, 2013, 4:09 pm

1. Jason Hammel is 30. Bud Norris 28. Jason Hammel has made approximately one season's worth of starts more than Bud Norris in the majors. Personally, I wouldn't put any thought into Hammel having more of a veteran presence.

2. Career wise, Bud Norris has been the slightly better pitcher. In 2013, the difference between them has expanded. Norris has been the significantly better pitcher. Hammel is not as bad as he has been this year, but he is as good as he was last year. But Norris' very consistent numbers are a slight upgrade over Hammel's average(how he should be pitching IMO).

3. Hammel is a free agent at the end of the season. Norris will be an Oriole for the next two years after this year.

It's not really even a choice here. If Buck sends Bud Norris to the bullpen, I will lose all respect for him as a manager.
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Re: What happens when Hammel returns?

PostPost #7 by Seafordeagles » August 7th, 2013, 4:13 pm

osforlife wrote:It's not really even a choice here. If Buck sends Bud Norris to the bullpen, I will lose all respect for him as a manager.


I agree, although I probably won't go as far as losing respect. You have to "ride" the hot hand, or in this case the hot arm.
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Re: What happens when Hammel returns?

PostPost #8 by Jordan Tuwiner » August 7th, 2013, 4:15 pm

osforlife wrote:1. Jason Hammel is 30. Bud Norris 28. Jason Hammel has made approximately one season's worth of starts more than Bud Norris in the majors. Personally, I wouldn't put any thought into Hammel having more of a veteran presence.

Hammel is in his 8th big league season; Norris his fifth.
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Re: What happens when Hammel returns?

PostPost #9 by osforlife » August 7th, 2013, 6:07 pm

Seafordeagles wrote:
I agree, although I probably won't go as far as losing respect. You have to "ride" the hot hand, or in this case the hot arm.

But Hammel isn't hot. His ERA has been consistently over 5.00 in every month since April. Hammel is due for progression, but the Orioles are in no position to see if he will improve. Norris is the more consistent, better arm. It's not a choice. These things usually work themselves out. Somebody could possibly get hurt. At this point, Hammel is our 6th starter, nothing more. If one of Chen/Tillman/Gonzalez/Feldman/Norris goes down, Jason is a pretty good backup option.

Jordan Tuwiner wrote:I see either Hammel or Norris heading to the bullpen. I think I'd rather see Hammel in the bullpen, but Buck likes his veterans so I think it's more likely that Norris will get moved.

If Buck is so intent on putting Hammel in the rotation, I'd put Feldman in the rotation over Norris. He has significant experience as a reliever. But that would be a stupid decision too. Jason Hammel isn't some old, prized veteran who has had a great career. He's had one full year of starts in the majors. He's been demoted to the bullpen as early as 2011. He was a swing man he's first four years in the majors. If Hammel didn't have a spectacular April of 2012, we wouldn't even be having this conversation right now.

Jordan Tuwiner wrote:Hammel is in his 8th big league season; Norris his fifth.

Jason Hammel only made 28 starts his first three years in the majors. He started out as a reliever in his fourth. He was demoted to the bullpen in his sixth. Hammel is only two years older and has only had 36 more starts. Hammel has made 54 relief appearances in his career. Norris has made one.
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Re: What happens when Hammel returns?

PostPost #10 by Seafordeagles » August 7th, 2013, 6:11 pm

Uhh, I was agreeing with you. By hot hand I was referring to Norris.
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Re: What happens when Hammel returns?

PostPost #11 by osforlife » August 7th, 2013, 6:22 pm

Seafordeagles wrote:Uhh, I was agreeing with you. By hot hand I was referring to Norris.

Oh my bad. I misunderstood.
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Re: What happens when Hammel returns?

PostPost #12 by Old Sneakers » August 7th, 2013, 6:53 pm

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130807&content_id=56195226&notebook_id=56195142&vkey=notebook_bal&c_id=bal

This issue will be re-examined in a week or two. Though I suspect Hammel is going to be working out of the pen. Think back a year ago, many people were carrying the banner "Extend Hammel" around like it was a no brainer. Now, he's heading into free agency with the same questions he had when we got him.

As much as I disliked giving up that competitive balance pick, getting Norris was just plain smart. This team isn't going to sign a first tier SP in free agency ever and though costly our rotation got younger.
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Re: What happens when Hammel returns?

PostPost #13 by ofahn » August 7th, 2013, 7:14 pm

Old Sneakers wrote:As much as I disliked giving up that competitive balance pick

I'm going out on a limb when I say this, but I believe the piece of that trade we're going to regret most is Hoes. He's a line drive hitter with plus plate discipline that knows how to go to the opposite field. Add to that above average base running and you have EXACTLY what this team needs a LOT more of.
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Re: What happens when Hammel returns?

PostPost #14 by Old Sneakers » August 7th, 2013, 11:06 pm

I liked LJ Hoes too. However, the club wasn't giving him ML exposure for some reason. Honestly, I expected him to get meaningful ABs this year. However we chose to aggressively promote Henry Urrutia. I expect Nate McLouth getting a better contract elsewhere next season. So who leads off next season? Urrutia does not seem a good candidate.

As for the competitive balance choice, well this team's minor league system is very thin. Gausman and Wright are close to contributing but not so close you should count on them next season. Also Jonathan Schoop has a great deal to work on.

Once Arrieta was dealt and the team acquired Feldman and Norris. I've been a tad surprised Britton is still here. I thought the team might have moved him to get hold of some positional talent.
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Re: What happens when Hammel returns?

PostPost #15 by osforlife » August 8th, 2013, 9:51 am

LJ Hoes could have easily been our left fielder next year. His home-runs won't reach the double-digits, but he'll get on-base and steal some bases. He had a .406 OBP in AAA! I think we are going to miss him too. I might have traded Urrutia over Hoes. But if it were up to me, the only trade we would have made was the Feldman trade. I might have looked into getting a rental starting pitcher, somebody with not a lot of value but is an upgrade over Hammel. Speaking of Urrutia, he could contribute next year, but can he hit LHP? Can he play defense? Jonathan Schoop needs at least one more year in AAA. We wouldn't get much for Britton. It's not like he is blocked in AAA pitching wonderful. With the disaster the Orioles had in the back end of the rotation, all Zach had to do was step up and take it. But he proceeded to pitch to an ugly 4.92 ERA, 1.627 WHIP, and just a 1.66 K/BB. Still I'd have rather traded Britton over Hoes, Delmonico, Hader, and/or the composition pick.
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