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Orioles Trade Hoes To Astros For Bud Norris

Re: Orioles Trade Hoes To Astros For Bud Norris

PostPost #16 by Dons0's » July 31st, 2013, 10:43 pm

It'd be nice if the offense would get out of this slump and give the pitching some support. I also think Adair should be fired at the end of the season, there is really no improvement in our pitching besides Tillman/Chen. We are picking up solid starters yet rank almost last in every pitching category. Something needs to change,.
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Re: Orioles Trade Hoes To Astros For Bud Norris

PostPost #17 by Seafordeagles » August 1st, 2013, 7:05 am

Dons0's wrote:It'd be nice if the offense would get out of this slump and give the pitching some support. I also think Adair should be fired at the end of the season, there is really no improvement in our pitching besides Tillman/Chen. We are picking up solid starters yet rank almost last in every pitching category. Something needs to change,.


Last year Adair was the savior and this year he's crap. It's so easy to blame the pitching coach. It's his fault that Jim Johnson blew those saves, it's his fault that Pedro Strop flat out sucked, it's his fault that Hammel has struggled.

Don't fault the players, blame the pitching coach. Makes a ton of sense to me, yeah let's fire him.
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Re: Orioles Trade Hoes To Astros For Bud Norris

PostPost #18 by ofahn » August 1st, 2013, 7:42 am

I'm sorry; but 2012, as much fun as it was, was NOT a realistic indicator of the talent level of this team. IMO this year offers a much better view of the REAL progress that has been made.

Are we better than .500? Yes. Are we a playoff team? Well, that depends on the level of competition. Is this a team that could go all the way? Not a chance! WAY too many holes in our game.

We made three trades in July. The first two were rentals to make the fans happy and sell tickets. The last one for Norris is the only trade that will help the team next year. Arrieta and Strop were disposable, but Delmonico was a real loss; not because he would have been an impact player in Baltimore, but because he could have helped us sometime in the future land a player that could have helped us for the long term. So, the end result is that we traded three of our top 15 prospects AND our Competitive Balance draft pick next year for Bud Norris. OUCH!

With last night's ugly loss we're on a pace to win 88.5 games and that record is an accurate indicator of the talent on this team. If we finish the year with 88 or 89 wins it will be three or four more than the 85 I predicated before the season began. I saw the holes then and I still see them now.

Davis, Tillman, and Machado have taken steps forward and Hammel and the bullpen have taken big steps backward. A fully stocked farm system might have been able to cover for that, but we don't have one of those. Of our four best RH hitters Jones, Hardy, and Wieters belong on a Saturday afternoon soft ball team where swinging from the heels on every pitch is expected.

We're going to need to make some substantial changes to our lineup this winter if we want to be a WS team in the near future.
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Re: Orioles Trade Hoes To Astros For Bud Norris

PostPost #19 by Dons0's » August 1st, 2013, 8:21 am

Seafordeagles wrote:
Last year Adair was the savior and this year he's crap. It's so easy to blame the pitching coach. It's his fault that Jim Johnson blew those saves, it's his fault that Pedro Strop flat out sucked, it's his fault that Hammel has struggled.

Don't fault the players, blame the pitching coach. Makes a ton of sense to me, yeah let's fire him.


Why not put some of the blame on him?? We have had all this young talent, yet this team can't seem to develop any of it besides Tillman when they finally make it to the bigs.

Tillman/Matusz/Arrieta/Britton just to name a few. The countless starts that the pitchers fail to get ahead in the count time and time again and yet we blame it ALL on the players?? Why even have a pitching coach then? A staff that leads the league in HRs given up by a long shot?

I understand that the pitchers are the ones out there on the field, but to have a blind eye and get ticked off when some one calls out Adair after this team hasn't had good pitching in the longest time, to seem unfair? Is pathetic.
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Re: Orioles Trade Hoes To Astros For Bud Norris

PostPost #20 by ofahn » August 1st, 2013, 11:02 am

Dons0's wrote:Why not put some of the blame on him?? We have had all this young talent, yet this team can't seem to develop any of it besides Tillman when they finally make it to the bigs.

With all due respect you've answered your own questions.

Rick Adair is the MAJOR LEAGUE pitching coach. He can only work with what has been sent to him. If a pitcher has had incomplete development in the minor leagues you can't blame that on someone who doesn't have any contact with these pitchers until they reach Baltimore.

I think we also must be realistic about the quality of SP talent we have right now. Chen is somewhere between a #2 and #3 SP with the upside of a #2. Tillman is between a #3 and #4 SP with the upside of a #2. Gonzalez and Feldman have the upside of a #3, and Norris a #4. This is NOT the 1971 starting rotation.

Dons0's wrote:Tillman/Matusz/Arrieta/Britton just to name a few. The countless starts that the pitchers fail to get ahead in the count time and time again and yet we blame it ALL on the players?? Why even have a pitching coach then? A staff that leads the league in HRs given up by a long shot?

Again, this is a DEVELOPMENTAL problem. We have a long history of rushing pitchers to Baltimore before they're ready. Instead of teaching them how to get ML hitters - players that don't swing at everything that's thrown at them - out, we let them rack up big minor league numbers and then act surprised that they aren't ready for prime time.

Look at Gausman. IMO he clearly wasn't ready to be promoted and showed it. Now he's back in AAA learning how to get ML hitters out and is resistant to changing his approach because he thinks he's just a phone call away from Baltimore. IMO the best thing about over paying for Norris is that Gausman will now know that he'll be at Norfolk until at least September 1st and will now have no other choice but to listen to the instruction he's being given. I wouldn't be surprised to see a significant improvement through the upcoming month.
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Re: Orioles Trade Hoes To Astros For Bud Norris

PostPost #21 by Seafordeagles » August 1st, 2013, 11:47 am

Dons0's wrote:
Why not put some of the blame on him?? We have had all this young talent, yet this team can't seem to develop any of it besides Tillman when they finally make it to the bigs.

Tillman/Matusz/Arrieta/Britton just to name a few. The countless starts that the pitchers fail to get ahead in the count time and time again and yet we blame it ALL on the players?? Why even have a pitching coach then? A staff that leads the league in HRs given up by a long shot?

I understand that the pitchers are the ones out there on the field, but to have a blind eye and get ticked off when some one calls out Adair after this team hasn't had good pitching in the longest time, to seem unfair? Is pathetic.


Trust me, I'm not ticked off and i'm also not pathetic in thinking that the blame goes on Adair. The easiest thing to say (and I think it's a major cop out on your part) is to "fire the pitching coach".

I'm also pretty sure that there have been "countless" times that he has told our pitchers to get ahead in the counts. YES, I blame the pitchers for not getting ahead in the counts, NOT THE PITCHING COACH. I blame the pitchers for throwing a crap fast ball down the middle of the plate when they have 2 strikes on the batter. Yes I blame the pitchers for walking too many hitters.

These are professional baseball players not little leaguers and it's the same pitching coach who did a marvelous job last year and it's the same pitching coach this year.
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Re: Orioles Trade Hoes To Astros For Bud Norris

PostPost #22 by osforlife » August 1st, 2013, 11:52 am

I liked the Scott Feldman trade. I disliked the K-Rod trade. I dislike this trade. I can see the point in wanting six major league starters in the Orioles control(Chen, Tillman, Gonzalez, Norris, Feldman, Hammel). Even with only two months left, it is not a certainty that the five healthy starters we have now(all those above excluding Hammel) will make the rest of the Orioles starts. An injury can happen, and the sixth could step right in.

But, why not acquire somebody like Mike Pelfrey, who would hardly cost us anything and has pitched well since coming off the disabled list? Why not Joe Saunders, who wouldn't have cost us anything and has pitched here successfully before. Erik Bedard, Aaron Harang, John Lannan? None of these guys would have cost us much at all, and frankly, those guys are just about equal to what Norris will bring to the table. Norris might be slightly better.

I can't even see the point in acquiring a starter past this year. If the Orioles are squeezed on money, during the off-season, buy low on a handful of Tyuyoshi Wada, Ryan Vogelsong, Shaun Marcum, Ted Lilly, Josh Johnson, Jeff Karstens, Dan Haren, Chris Capuano types.

Norris gives us another middle of the rotation starter to go with Chen, Gonzalez, and Tillman for next year. But is he really worth two of our top ten prospects, and what would be another top ten prospect next year? Ugh. Someday, when I'm GM...........
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Re: Orioles Trade Hoes To Astros For Bud Norris

PostPost #23 by ljmillar22 » August 1st, 2013, 12:10 pm

here is a link to an article which people might want to read, hopefully it will let you read it as its on espn insider

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/ ... lb_xxx_xxx
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Re: Orioles Trade Hoes To Astros For Bud Norris

PostPost #24 by ofahn » August 1st, 2013, 12:16 pm

osforlife wrote:Norris gives us another middle of the rotation starter to go with Chen, Gonzalez, and Tillman for next year. But is he really worth two of our top ten prospects, and what would be another top ten prospect next year? Ugh. Someday, when I'm GM...........

I wouldn't have a problem with over paying for a #4 SP IF we were working overtime to refill the farm system, but that's not happening.

The Cubs spent about 6M on International amateurs this year after spending 30M on Jorge Soler last year. We've spent about 1M of which 800K was spent on Cuban Dariel Alvarez. Here's a scouting report on him.

The Orioles announced the signing of Dariel Alvarez, a 24-year-old outfielder from Cuba. Alvarez had modest numbers in his final season Cuba and the skeptical scouting reports to match. Playing for Camaguey in Serie Nacional in 2011-12, Alvarez hit .272/.343/.392 in 319 plate appearances, which puts him a little below league average in both on-base percentage and slugging in the Cuban league, and eighth on his own team in OBP.

Scouts didn’t have many positive things to say about Alvarez. Several scouts said he struggles against live pitching, with an uppercut righthanded swing that has effort in it to try to lift the ball with occasional power. His best tool is his arm, and at one point there was talk about Alvarez converting to pitching, but the Orioles signed him as a hitter.

Alvarez, who is 6-foot-2, 180 pounds, did hit better the previous season in Cuba in 2010-11, when he batted .363/.404/.613 with 20 home runs in 376 plate appearances, his only productive season in the league. The Orioles said Alvarez will report to high Class A Frederick after reporting to Sarasota this week. His signing is not subject to the 2013-14 international bonus pools.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/internat ... l-alvarez/

Read the first line of the second paragraph. That's not very encouraging.

Our draft this year was primarily HS talent. Some of those kids may have very high upside, but we're not going to see that in Baltimore for about five years or so. Most of the better prospects in our farm system are at AAA or AA so they will show whether they're major league players by 2015 or so. At the end of that season we're going to lose control of Wieters, Davis, Markakis, and Chen. At this point there are no clear replacements for them in our farm system. This team isn't (and shouldn't) sign "free" agents of equal value because ownership won't authorize the payroll and there's legitimate doubt that the farm system will produce enough prospects to trade for what we'll need even if those player would be available.

IMO all of that means we should be signing every legitimate International player out there to fill in the gap between what we have and what we're going to need within a few years, but I don't believe that ownership has given DD the budget to do that. We're still clipping coupons and hoping that 14th round draft choices turn into all stars. That's like making your retirement plan playing the lottery - and only buying ONE ticket a week.
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Re: Orioles Trade Hoes To Astros For Bud Norris

PostPost #25 by Dons0's » August 1st, 2013, 2:52 pm

Seafordeagles wrote:
Trust me, I'm not ticked off and i'm also not pathetic in thinking that the blame goes on Adair. The easiest thing to say (and I think it's a major cop out on your part) is to "fire the pitching coach".

I'm also pretty sure that there have been "countless" times that he has told our pitchers to get ahead in the counts. YES, I blame the pitchers for not getting ahead in the counts, NOT THE PITCHING COACH. I blame the pitchers for throwing a crap fast ball down the middle of the plate when they have 2 strikes on the batter. Yes I blame the pitchers for walking too many hitters.

These are professional baseball players not little leaguers and it's the same pitching coach who did a marvelous job last year and it's the same pitching coach this year.


Then why have pitching coaches? I don't understand, for Adair to not take some of the blame is just looking the other way. I'm not saying the staff should hold themselves accountable, but Adair is part of the issue.
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Re: Orioles Trade Hoes To Astros For Bud Norris

PostPost #26 by ofahn » August 1st, 2013, 3:57 pm

Dons0's wrote: Adair is part of the issue

Please reread my post and explain how you can make such a statement.
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Re: Orioles Trade Hoes To Astros For Bud Norris

PostPost #27 by Seafordeagles » August 1st, 2013, 4:29 pm

Dons0's wrote:Then why have pitching coaches? I don't understand, for Adair to not take some of the blame is just looking the other way. I'm not saying the staff should hold themselves accountable, but Adair is part of the issue.


Your first sentence is absolutely absurd and ridiculous, so I won't address that statement. The issue is YOU made him the issue, only you, and no one but you.

Another thing you are here stating you want Adair fired when in reality you have no clue what Adair does. You have no clue what he says to the pitchers during the game, after the game, or before the game. You see him as the scapegoat. I see him as an asset who is well respected pitching coach in major league baseball.
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Re: Orioles Trade Hoes To Astros For Bud Norris

PostPost #28 by Dons0's » August 1st, 2013, 5:04 pm

Seafordeagles wrote:
Your first sentence is absolutely absurd and ridiculous, so I won't address that statement. The issue is YOU made him the issue, only you, and no one but you.

Another thing you are here stating you want Adair fired when in reality you have no clue what Adair does. You have no clue what he says to the pitchers during the game, after the game, or before the game. You see him as the scapegoat. I see him as an asset who is well respected pitching coach in major league baseball.


He is PART of the issue. Sorry.
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Re: Orioles Trade Hoes To Astros For Bud Norris

PostPost #29 by Dons0's » August 1st, 2013, 5:16 pm

ofahn wrote:With all due respect you've answered your own questions.

Rick Adair is the MAJOR LEAGUE pitching coach. He can only work with what has been sent to him. If a pitcher has had incomplete development in the minor leagues you can't blame that on someone who doesn't have any contact with these pitchers until they reach Baltimore.

I think we also must be realistic about the quality of SP talent we have right now. Chen is somewhere between a #2 and #3 SP with the upside of a #2. Tillman is between a #3 and #4 SP with the upside of a #2. Gonzalez and Feldman have the upside of a #3, and Norris a #4. This is NOT the 1971 starting rotation.


Again, this is a DEVELOPMENTAL problem. We have a long history of rushing pitchers to Baltimore before they're ready. Instead of teaching them how to get ML hitters - players that don't swing at everything that's thrown at them - out, we let them rack up big minor league numbers and then act surprised that they aren't ready for prime time.

Look at Gausman. IMO he clearly wasn't ready to be promoted and showed it. Now he's back in AAA learning how to get ML hitters out and is resistant to changing his approach because he thinks he's just a phone call away from Baltimore. IMO the best thing about over paying for Norris is that Gausman will now know that he'll be at Norfolk until at least September 1st and will now have no other choice but to listen to the instruction he's being given. I wouldn't be surprised to see a significant improvement through the upcoming month.


What you summed up was, that it is a developmental issue. So, pitchers are done developing when they hit the bigs? So the issue is ONLY in the minors, not when they have been called up and been pitching for some time in the majors?? :lol:
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Re: Orioles Trade Hoes To Astros For Bud Norris

PostPost #30 by ofahn » August 1st, 2013, 5:34 pm

Dons0's wrote:So, pitchers are done developing when they hit the bigs?

Pretty much; yes.

Development is the foundation. I don't care if Cy Young, Warren Spahn, Jim Palmer, Bob Gibson, and Greg Maddox all rolled into one was the pitching coach; if a pitcher has poor fundamentals when they get to the majors then NO pitching coach is going to be able to fix that.

Also, I think you have conveniently ignored the paragraph where I reminded you that we don't have great talent in our rotation. The most potential of the bunch is Tillman and he was promoted to the majors before he learned how to get through an inning in about 13 pitches. You can't blame THAT on Adair.
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