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I'll get flamed for this, but trade Markakis.

I'll get flamed for this, but trade Markakis.

PostPost #1 by Dons0's » July 27th, 2013, 10:26 pm

Right now, I would rather have Weiters for the future than Nick. Catcher is more critical than a RF who is making 15 mill a season who should only be making about 8 per season. Markakis has plateaued as a ball player. He will be the typical .290 14hr and 70 rbi guy.

He isn't a threat on the base paths, not threatening at all with the long-ball(I know I preach we need more base hitters on this team so I am not trying to be a hypocrite). To say he has been a disappointment to play at what he is making is an understatement.

I also look at what we could possibly get in return for him as a trade piece. Maybe a few hot pitching prospect are a legitimate number 2 maybe?? I look for Hoes playing in Baltimore next season, I would rather keep Nate next season at LF and put Hoes in right. Urrutia can still get at bats while he works on his defensive part of his game.

If you could trade Nick to a team who would pick up his contract that would free up money for Weiters. All I am saying is at the end of the day, I would rather take Weiters over Nick, that should also be able for the O's to lock up Manny and Davis also in the next couple years.

Like I said, this is just a rant/specualtion/just for fun kind of debate. With the farm system depleted almost down to nothing, I think we could get very good prospects, or a starting pitcher+prosepect(s)
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Re: I'll get flamed for this, but trade Markakis.

PostPost #2 by osforlife » July 28th, 2013, 11:31 am

Nick Markakis is having his worst year of his career in 2013, and it is not even that close. Nick Markakis is being payed like 2007-2008 Nick Markakis. 2007-2008 Nick Markakis was a super-star. It's pretty hard to predict a young phenom getting significantly worse going into the prime of his career. He signed a back-loaded extension, so at this point, it is very hard to move him, considering he's an average player getting payed like a super-star. The Orioles would have to eat a large portion of the contract. It's smarter to let him play out his contract as an Orioles, choose the $2MM buyout for 2015, and move on.

That being said, Wieters is also having his worst or second worst year in his career. It has been reported that the Orioles have attempted to sign Wieters to an extension, and things couldn't get done. That could have possibly been why the Orioles drafted four catchers in the first ten rounds this year.
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Re: I'll get flamed for this, but trade Markakis.

PostPost #3 by Old Sneakers » July 30th, 2013, 5:48 am

Not much to say except Matt Weiters is not a super-star worthy of super-star money. Yes Catcher is important (very much so). However I would prefer a first rate defensive catcher whom is an on base machine. Not one that turns in the occasional decent night at the plate.

As for Markakis, I think we are stuck with that contract for another season. I don't know of any teams so in need of a RF that the money would make dealing for him worthwhile. He's a good guy and a model citizen. Can't think of anyone more worthy of the contract he signed. It just happens to be a tad high.
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Re: I'll get flamed for this, but trade Markakis.

PostPost #4 by ofahn » July 30th, 2013, 6:10 am

Old Sneakers wrote:Can't think of anyone more worthy of the contract he signed. It just happens to be a tad high.

I never had a problem with the contract dollars, I had a problem with how the money was allocated.

His extension was signed at a time when the team reduced its payroll by 25M a year because it was going through a rebuilding program. That implies that a group of young players will be added to the roster at the same time and will hit arbitration at the same time. Thus, payroll will SIGNIFICANTLY increase in about four years; which, of course, is EXACTLY what has happened.

IMO Markakis should have been given a substantial signing bonus during the time the team saved 50M over a two year period so that his salary during the out years of his contract would have lower leaving payroll room for the players now hitting arbitration.

We fans were told that the rebuilding program wasn't a way to cut salary, but to build a winner; yet virtually none of the savings were used to sign overslot players in the Rule 4 Draft or sign international talent. In effect, it was an 80M money grab by ownership and now the team is hamstrung with scheduled payroll increases that could have been mitigated.
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Re: I'll get flamed for this, but trade Markakis.

PostPost #5 by Seafordeagles » July 30th, 2013, 7:41 am

Old Sneakers wrote:However I would prefer a first rate defensive catcher whom is an on base machine.


You can't list a number of those types on one hand. They're just not out there. I can think of 2, Mauer (with no power), and Yadier Molina. That's a very short list in my mind.
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Re: I'll get flamed for this, but trade Markakis.

PostPost #6 by osforlife » July 30th, 2013, 11:32 am

Per MLB.com, there are 13 qualified major league catchers so far in 2013. Offensively, Wieters is:
-9th in average
-11th in OBP
-7th in slugging
-8th in OPS
Obviously, he is not a top tier offensive catcher, even in his best year. But, what he lacks in offensive abilities, he makes up for in durability and defensive skills. Matt Wieters holds his own offensively, plays practically everyday, and is one of the best defensive catchers in baseball. Therefore, in a non-catching era, he is actually a pretty rare find. Many teams struggle with their catching situation all year, even contenders. He could be better, but I'd say we are pretty lucky to have Matt. That being said, I would not be the one to overpay Wieters for the player he could be, or the player he was supposed to be. If he is willing to sign for the kind of money a respectable, reliable, yet decently far from an all-star catcher, I'm all for it. If Scott Boras is going to advertise Wieters for more than that, the Orioles should have an abundance of minor league catchers reasonably close to the majors.
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Re: I'll get flamed for this, but trade Markakis.

PostPost #7 by ofahn » July 30th, 2013, 12:33 pm

osforlife wrote:what he lacks in offensive abilities, he makes up for in durability and defensive skills. Matt Wieters holds his own offensively, plays practically everyday, and is one of the best defensive catchers in baseball.

As I have posted before; he's the modern version of Dave Duncan.
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Re: I'll get flamed for this, but trade Markakis.

PostPost #8 by osforlife » July 30th, 2013, 4:06 pm

ofahn wrote:As I have posted before; he's the modern version of Dave Duncan.

I've never seen Dave Duncan play, or even heard of Dave Duncan until now. But, looking at his stats, Matt Wieters is significantly better than what Dave Duncan used to be. Dave Duncan's best hitting season, a .259/.320/.418, is in line with Wieters worst hitting season, a .242/.300/.424. Duncan's career line is .214/.279/.357, while Wieters is .257/.324/.421. Plus, per baseball-reference, Duncan's dWAR suggests he wasn't even a great defender, he was simply average. Matt Wieters' dWAR in 2011 alone was more cumulative value than Duncan's whole career.
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Re: I'll get flamed for this, but trade Markakis.

PostPost #9 by Seafordeagles » July 30th, 2013, 4:30 pm

osforlife wrote:I've never seen Dave Duncan play, or even heard of Dave Duncan until now. But, looking at his stats, Matt Wieters is significantly better than what Dave Duncan used to be. Dave Duncan's best hitting season, a .259/.320/.418, is in line with Wieters worst hitting season, a .242/.300/.424. Duncan's career line is .214/.279/.357, while Wieters is .257/.324/.421. Plus, per baseball-reference, Duncan's dWAR suggests he wasn't even a great defender, he was simply average. Matt Wieters' dWAR in 2011 alone was more cumulative value than Duncan's whole career.


Thanks for the references.
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Re: I'll get flamed for this, but trade Markakis.

PostPost #10 by Old Sneakers » July 30th, 2013, 4:40 pm

Seafordeagles wrote:
You can't list a number of those types on one hand. They're just not out there. I can think of 2, Mauer (with no power), and Yadier Molina. That's a very short list in my mind.


I can't dispute that all. However, I feel pretty good about my description for that position being player developmental focus now and forever. To me, power potential is simply over rated.
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Re: I'll get flamed for this, but trade Markakis.

PostPost #11 by Seafordeagles » July 30th, 2013, 4:55 pm

Old Sneakers wrote:
I can't dispute that all. However, I feel pretty good about my description for that position being player developmental focus now and forever. To me, power potential is simply over rated.


and the orioles drafted 5 catchers this year, so they're trying to be developmental.
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Re: I'll get flamed for this, but trade Markakis.

PostPost #12 by ofahn » July 30th, 2013, 5:02 pm

osforlife wrote:I've never seen Dave Duncan play, or even heard of Dave Duncan until now. But, looking at his stats, Matt Wieters is significantly better than what Dave Duncan used to be. Dave Duncan's best hitting season, a .259/.320/.418, is in line with Wieters worst hitting season, a .242/.300/.424. Duncan's career line is .214/.279/.357, while Wieters is .257/.324/.421. Plus, per baseball-reference, Duncan's dWAR suggests he wasn't even a great defender, he was simply average. Matt Wieters' dWAR in 2011 alone was more cumulative value than Duncan's whole career.

The research is commendable, but the eras the players have accumulated their statistics make a direct comparison almost impossible.

Duncan played a substantial portion of his career BEFORE the DH which affects his (and everyone elses) production. Add to that the fact that he played a number of years in the "high mound" era. That was the period in the late Sixties when Denny McLain won 31 games and Bob Gibson had a 1.12 ERA. Add about 15% across Duncan's slash line for a comparison to today's stats.

Dave Duncan was a all or nothing hitter with a low average and some power. He was a SUPERB handler of pitchers, but didn't have quite the arm that Wieters does. I saw him play for almost ten years and I can assure you that the comp with Wieters is valid.
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Re: I'll get flamed for this, but trade Markakis.

PostPost #13 by osforlife » July 30th, 2013, 8:46 pm

ofahn wrote:The research is commendable, but the eras the players have accumulated their statistics make a direct comparison almost impossible.

Duncan played a substantial portion of his career BEFORE the DH which affects his (and everyone elses) production. Add to that the fact that he played a number of years in the "high mound" era. That was the period in the late Sixties when Denny McLain won 31 games and Bob Gibson had a 1.12 ERA. Add about 15% across Duncan's slash line for a comparison to today's stats.

Dave Duncan was a all or nothing hitter with a low average and some power. He was a SUPERB handler of pitchers, but didn't have quite the arm that Wieters does. I saw him play for almost ten years and I can assure you that the comp with Wieters is valid.

Nice points. I didn't think of those. Still, even if their offensive production was similar, Wieters is still a far better defender than Duncan was.
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Re: I'll get flamed for this, but trade Markakis.

PostPost #14 by Rising O's » August 4th, 2013, 12:25 pm

Its great to see Nick having his worst career year still hitting 3rd most nights. He is a proven unproductive #3 hitter. Buck continues to ignore this. Last year he was forced to move him to #1 and he thrived. We need him to do so again if we expect this offense to carry the team more often.

Who knows what Matt Wieters is looking for in an extension. He is not worth more than what similar catchers have been getting. In fact, looking at him run, makes me wonder if he is worth an extension at all. His splits are bad enough that his value as a switch hitter is almost nil.

Losing to these beatable teams has me a bit peeved. Buck may as well put McClouth and Markakis back to back vs RHP and try to win every one of those games rather than continue this alternate batter approach because they awful as a team vs LHP
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Re: I'll get flamed for this, but trade Markakis.

PostPost #15 by osforlife » August 5th, 2013, 8:40 am

The Orioles are tied for 9th in runs scored and are 22nd in OPS against left-handed pitchers. The Orioles are tied for 4th in runs scored and are 2nd in OPS against right-handed pitchers. Many of our hitters have drastic splits that prefer right-handers. Except for Wieters, all of our hitters favor right-handed pitchers. That being said, I wouldn't say it is too much of a problem. With Pearce and Valencia back, our hitting against left-handed pitchers should improve. McLouth has actually held his own against LHP this year, while Markakis is the outfielder to really struggle.
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