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Back from the ledge!

Re: Back from the ledge!

PostPost #16 by ofahn » June 9th, 2013, 11:22 am

birdwatcher55 wrote:As bad as Wada??? 8-)


1) Wada was ranked much higher than Saunders.
2) Wada's contract was 8.1M for two years and Saunders wanted more than 15M for the same period.

I hope that clears up any confusion.
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Re: Back from the ledge!

PostPost #17 by birdwatcher55 » June 9th, 2013, 12:40 pm

You're missing a couple of key points:
-- Wada has cost us $8 million and has thrown ZERO innings in MLB.
-- Saunders was instrumental in getting us to the playoffs last year and has proven durable and dependable in his career 8-)
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Re: Back from the ledge!

PostPost #18 by ofahn » June 9th, 2013, 12:56 pm

birdwatcher55 wrote:Saunders was instrumental in getting us to the playoffs last year


Yes he was. Of course, that was LAST year. If we're going to base our decisions off of previous performance I don't understand why we don't have a rotation of Jim Palmer, Mike Cuellar, Mike Mussina, Steve Stone, and Scott McGregor.

birdwatcher55 wrote:has proven durable and dependable in his career


I'll concede durable, but I have some questions about dependable. Have you seen his line from this year? He has an ERA of almost 6.00 and a WHIP of almost 1.500, and that's in SEATTLE'S park. I'm curious; do you EVER do any research before you spout this stuff?
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Re: Back from the ledge!

PostPost #19 by birdwatcher55 » June 9th, 2013, 1:13 pm

4-5 and 5.20 would fit well for us. Lot better than what Gausman has given us. I do research when necessary; signing Saunders was a no-brainer. Seattle is a lousy team. Saunders would have flourisehd here as he did last year. Check it out 8-)
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Re: Back from the ledge!

PostPost #20 by osforlife » June 9th, 2013, 2:11 pm

I don't fault Duquette for signing Wada. The Orioles had no rotation at all in 2011. Going into 2012, the one consistent, quality pitcher the Orioles had was traded away.
-Alfredo Simon and Brad Bergesen were no longer viewed as starters.
-Jake Arrieta had a disappointing year and required surgery.
-Brian Matusz had the worst year by a starting pitcher who pitched in 10 or more games in baseball history.
-Hell, Chris Jakubaskas, Jo-Jo Reyes, Mitch Atkins, and Rick Vandenhurk combined to start 16 games for the Orioles.

Injuries happen; I'm sure Wada would have been a back of the rotation starter for the Orioles if he had stayed healthy. He may get some appearances this year, but I don't expect him to be very good. Pitchers usually don't throw up to their capabilities one year removed from Tommy John Surgery. The Orioles hold a $5mil club option for him to return in 2014.
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Re: Back from the ledge!

PostPost #21 by osforlife » June 9th, 2013, 2:27 pm

It sounded like a good idea to sign one bona fide starter coming into the season. With Jason Hammel, Wei Yen Chen, Miguel Gonzalez, and Chris Tillman as locks, it made sense to sign one more lock. In that case, the Orioles could have had the pitchers who deserve to be in AAA, pitch in AAA. It is much more intelligent to rely on pitchers like Steve Johnson, Jair Jurrjens, and Freddy Garcia as automatic depth, instead of them fighting for a rotation spot.

In hind sight, hardly any of the free agent starting pitchers signed to one year deals have pitched any good. These are the free agent starting pitchers that signed one year this offseason:

Joe Saunders $7.000MM SEA
Francisco Liriano $1.000MM PIT
Shaun Marcum $4.000MM NYM
Jeff Karstens $2.500MM PIT
Jeff Francis $1.500MM COL
Dan Haren $13.000MM WAS
Jason Marquis $3.000MM SDG
Andy Pettitte $12.000MM NYY
Scott Feldman $6.000MM CHC
Hiroki Kuroda $15.000MM NYY
Bartolo Colon $3.000MM OAK

Going into the season, Marquis, Francis, Feldman, and Liriano weren't even worth a major league deal IMO. For Kuroda and Pettitte, it was either the Yankees or retirement. I think it would have been a good deal for the Orioles to sign any one of Karstens, Marcum, Colon, Haren, or Saunders. Turns out, Karstens is done for the year, and outside of Colon, none of those pitchers are doing well.
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Re: Back from the ledge!

PostPost #22 by ofahn » June 9th, 2013, 4:08 pm

osforlife wrote:The Orioles hold a $5mil club option for him to return in 2014.


Which they can almost certainly negotiate down to something in the 2M range if they think he's healthy. He'd be lucky to get a minor league deal on the open market.
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Re: Back from the ledge!

PostPost #23 by ofahn » June 9th, 2013, 4:14 pm

osforlife wrote:In hind sight, hardly any of the free agent starting pitchers signed to one year deals have pitched any good. These are the free agent starting pitchers that signed one year this offseason:

Joe Saunders $7.000MM SEA
Francisco Liriano $1.000MM PIT
Shaun Marcum $4.000MM NYM
Jeff Karstens $2.500MM PIT
Jeff Francis $1.500MM COL
Dan Haren $13.000MM WAS
Jason Marquis $3.000MM SDG
Andy Pettitte $12.000MM NYY
Scott Feldman $6.000MM CHC
Hiroki Kuroda $15.000MM NYY
Bartolo Colon $3.000MM OAK

Going into the season, Marquis, Francis, Feldman, and Liriano weren't even worth a major league deal IMO. For Kuroda and Pettitte, it was either the Yankees or retirement. I think it would have been a good deal for the Orioles to sign any one of Karstens, Marcum, Colon, Haren, or Saunders. Turns out, Karstens is done for the year, and outside of Colon, none of those pitchers are doing well.


I was interested in Liriano and Ervin Santana. The Orioles weren't interested in paying Santana's salary, but the Royals were and they're certainly benefiting from that choice. http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... er01.shtml
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Re: Back from the ledge!

PostPost #24 by mikezpen » June 10th, 2013, 10:03 am

Random thoughts.

I wanted them to re-sign Joe Saunders this year. But aside from the excellent CG victory he hurled over us, he's been mostly lousy. So signing him w/have been a bad move.

You can't blame them for the Wada signing. They also signed Chen and he's worked out fine.Sometimes you just don't know.Anyway, Wada mite still help them in the second half.

I think they made a mistake rushing Gausman up here. He had only 61 innings in the pros when they promoted him.I just hope they aren't hurting him be leaving him in the rotation.
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Re: Back from the ledge!

PostPost #25 by Jordan Tuwiner » June 10th, 2013, 11:59 am

Wada was supposed to be better than Chen. Can't fault Duquette on that one. I'd be pretty happy with another Chen in the rotation.
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Re: Back from the ledge!

PostPost #26 by A_K » June 10th, 2013, 12:53 pm

Wada was supposed to be better than Chen? That's not how I remember it at all. I remember most reviews being that Chen was a good, young prospect and Wada was a non-entity that shouldn't be signed at all.

Now, I was fine with the signing then and I'm fine with it now (since I obviously don't know anything about Asian professionals), but I do not recall anyone thinking Wada was the better signing.
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Re: Back from the ledge!

PostPost #27 by mikezpen » June 10th, 2013, 1:30 pm

I recall reading that Wada was something of a finesse pitcher when they signed him. I think that lowered him in people's eyes.Nobody gets excited over signing someone like that.
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Re: Back from the ledge!

PostPost #28 by osforlife » June 10th, 2013, 2:32 pm

In seven seasons in the Japanese league, Tsuyoshi Wada compiled a 2.95 ERA, 1.139 WHIP, & 3.44 SO/BB.
In five seasons in the Japanese league, Wei Yen Chen compiled a 2.59 ERA, 1.085 WHIP, & 3.27 SO/BB.
They had very similar numbers and were signed to very similar contracts.
Wada has been compared to Bruce Chen and I have not seen a comparison to Chen, but he throws a bit harder.
I'm not so sure Wada will help us out much this season coming right off of surgery, but I'm sure we could work out another deal for him to pitch for the Orioles in 2014.
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Re: Back from the ledge!

PostPost #29 by A_K » June 10th, 2013, 3:38 pm

Just as one comparison, here's Keith Law on Tsuyoshi Wada at the time we signed him:

@keithlaw Grade 40 fastball in the AL East? No thanks. RT @mlbtraderumors: Orioles To Sign Tsuyoshi Wada http://bit.ly/t9vNg4 #mlb

https://twitter.com/keithlaw/status/146690110828707840

By comparison, he had Wei Yin Chen as his 19th ranked free agent in his top 50 free agents list for the entire league that offseason.

http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/who-is-wei-yen-chen/

That's just one guy's opinion, but it is pretty close to what I remember hearing overall about the two pitchers.
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Re: Back from the ledge!

PostPost #30 by ofahn » June 10th, 2013, 4:19 pm

A_K wrote:Wada was supposed to be better than Chen? That's not how I remember it at all.


I remember Kubatko reporting that was the FO's thinking on the two. Even if we add Wada's salary to Chen's we're STILL getting a bargain on Chen.
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