Welcome to the Orioles Nation Forums! Like most online communities, you must register to post on our message board. However, posting is free--it always will be--and registration is a simple process. Become part of the growing Orioles Nation community and register now!

Back to the Starting Rotation for 2013

Re: Back to the Starting Rotation for 2013

PostPost #61 by osforlife » February 17th, 2013, 12:32 pm

You said Mickey Mantle & Willie Mays had to be sent down to the minors. That is what our young pitchers should do. They shouldn't be given rotation spots because they have potential. They should have to earn their spots, like everybody else. All three pitchers were TERRIBLE LAST YEAR. Until they prove they can pitch effectively in the minors, they really should not be given a spot on a major league roster. None of them were good at AAA last year, who knows if they can even dominate AAA hitters? If they can't pitch great in AAA, how in the world are they supposed pitch GOOD against major league hitters. Chris Tillman, his future was all but lost. Fortunately, Rick Petersen worked with him and look at what Tillman did in the majors. Maybe Petersen can work his magic with them too. The majors is not a place to be experimenting & tweaking. The minors is, and all of them have to change something.
User avatar
osforlife
Aberdeen IronBirds
 
Posts: 1628
Joined: October 2011
Location: Southern Maryland
Reputation Score: 59

Re: Back to the Starting Rotation for 2013

PostPost #62 by birdwatcher55 » February 17th, 2013, 3:54 pm

Just my two cents ...Matusz must be on the roster either as starter or setup 8-)
birdwatcher55
Aberdeen IronBirds
 
Posts: 1624
Joined: November 2011
Reputation Score: 11

Re: Back to the Starting Rotation for 2013

PostPost #63 by Seafordeagles » February 17th, 2013, 3:59 pm

osforlife wrote:You said Mickey Mantle & Willie Mays had to be sent down to the minors. That is what our young pitchers should do. They shouldn't be given rotation spots because they have potential. They should have to earn their spots, like everybody else. All three pitchers were TERRIBLE LAST YEAR. Until they prove they can pitch effectively in the minors, they really should not be given a spot on a major league roster. None of them were good at AAA last year, who knows if they can even dominate AAA hitters? If they can't pitch great in AAA, how in the world are they supposed pitch GOOD against major league hitters. Chris Tillman, his future was all but lost. Fortunately, Rick Petersen worked with him and look at what Tillman did in the majors. Maybe Petersen can work his magic with them too. The majors is not a place to be experimenting & tweaking. The minors is, and all of them have to change something.


I understand all 3 pitchers were terrible last year, I got that. All 3 have been sent back to the minors at least once before. Spring training is also a place for experimenting & tweaking as well.

I guarantee you one of these guys will "get it" in spring training and will earn a roster spot no matter what they did last year. That's where I differ with you. I think you are overrating the minors and to a degree the effect of Rick Peterson (who is at spring training incidentally and is working with all the pitchers.)

One other thing Rick Adair worked with Tillman as well and that is documented, he also worked with Brady Anderson on strength and conditioning and that is documented as well.
Seafordeagles
GCL Orioles
 
Posts: 696
Joined: October 2012
Reputation Score: 18

Re: Back to the Starting Rotation for 2013

PostPost #64 by osforlife » February 17th, 2013, 10:17 pm

I don't know, I think it was definitely Petersen that took Tillman to the next step. He was struggling at AAA, and then it was emphasized Rick Petersen started to work with him and the results started to show it. I'm pretty sure that was the case. Maybe we just have to agree to disagree on this. I think Britton, Arrieta, and Matusz need to take time in AAA to 1) finish their development 2) work with Rick Petersen 3) tweak anything that needs to be changed 4) make them earn a spot in the majors by pitching well in the minors, which none of them even did last year. You think the most talented players should be on the roster and one of them will catch fire. We'll just see.
User avatar
osforlife
Aberdeen IronBirds
 
Posts: 1628
Joined: October 2011
Location: Southern Maryland
Reputation Score: 59

Re: Back to the Starting Rotation for 2013

PostPost #65 by ofahn » February 18th, 2013, 7:07 am

Seafordeagles wrote:You HAVE to go with your best players


That statement is only valid IF you're willing to trade a few wins NOW for the upside of a plus career later. We have three young pitchers that honestly need to finish the development they didn't get before. They may all end up being bit players, but is just doesn't make any sense to me take that risk if we don't have t by rushing them back to the ML before they're ready to succeed.
User avatar
ofahn
Aberdeen IronBirds
 
Posts: 4402
Joined: May 2011
Reputation Score: 85

Re: Back to the Starting Rotation for 2013

PostPost #66 by ofahn » February 18th, 2013, 7:11 am

Old Sneakers wrote:I know many pitchers bounce to and from the minors before becoming finished products. However, it really is time for both of those guys to put up or shut up.


Is it REALLY fair to blame the players for not being ready when we truly didn't have a proper development system until last year?
User avatar
ofahn
Aberdeen IronBirds
 
Posts: 4402
Joined: May 2011
Reputation Score: 85

Re: Back to the Starting Rotation for 2013

PostPost #67 by ofahn » February 18th, 2013, 7:12 am

Seafordeagles wrote:I'm all about winning this year, not next year or 2 years from now.


With all due respect, I see that POV as the biggest flaw in your argument.
User avatar
ofahn
Aberdeen IronBirds
 
Posts: 4402
Joined: May 2011
Reputation Score: 85

Re: Back to the Starting Rotation for 2013

PostPost #68 by ofahn » February 18th, 2013, 7:14 am

Seafordeagles wrote:I think you are overrating the minors and to a degree the effect of Rick Peterson


IMO you're underrating the importance of proper development.
User avatar
ofahn
Aberdeen IronBirds
 
Posts: 4402
Joined: May 2011
Reputation Score: 85

Re: Back to the Starting Rotation for 2013

PostPost #69 by Seafordeagles » February 18th, 2013, 9:05 am

Please someone read Roch's article today about Britton.

When players reach their mid 20's and have been in the system for at least 5 years I think the proper development time for most players has been done. I know you can say the system didn't have the proper instructors and all that to properly develop these players.

My point in this thread was I would rather have Arrieta, Matusz, or Britton IF THEY HAVE BETTER SPRINGS than McFarland who's spring is not as good as any of those guys. That's how this whole debate started. I still feel that way, and I'm sticking to it.

And yes ofahn I want to win now. I know you want to wait 2 or 3 years for the players to develop. All I can say if a players ready than he's ready. Would the Orioles have made the playoffs last year without Manny? I for one don't think so.
Seafordeagles
GCL Orioles
 
Posts: 696
Joined: October 2012
Reputation Score: 18

Re: Back to the Starting Rotation for 2013

PostPost #70 by ofahn » February 18th, 2013, 12:20 pm

Seafordeagles wrote:When players reach their mid 20's and have been in the system for at least 5 years I think the proper development time for most players has been done.


That's assuming that they have had proper development in the past which, in the case of our prospects, they haven't. This isn't a big secret; all of baseball was talking about our inability to develop the quality prospects we had.
User avatar
ofahn
Aberdeen IronBirds
 
Posts: 4402
Joined: May 2011
Reputation Score: 85

Re: Back to the Starting Rotation for 2013

PostPost #71 by ofahn » February 18th, 2013, 12:22 pm

Seafordeagles wrote:And yes ofahn I want to win now. I know you want to wait 2 or 3 years for the players to develop.


You misunderstand my desires. I would LIKE to win now, but I'm not willing to risk a LONG run of winning seasons for a few extra (maybe meaningless) wins this year.
User avatar
ofahn
Aberdeen IronBirds
 
Posts: 4402
Joined: May 2011
Reputation Score: 85

Re: Back to the Starting Rotation for 2013

PostPost #72 by Seafordeagles » February 18th, 2013, 1:23 pm

ofahn wrote:
You misunderstand my desires. I would LIKE to win now, but I'm not willing to risk a LONG run of winning seasons for a few extra (maybe meaningless) wins this year.


I'm sure if you ran that by Buck he would be totally appalled at that way of thinking. The Orioles are in it for the LONG RUN now. There's is no reason to think we can't win NOW and In the LONG RUN. There is a awful lot of talent even without Bundy and Gausman.

I can't find a risk like you stated.
Seafordeagles
GCL Orioles
 
Posts: 696
Joined: October 2012
Reputation Score: 18

Re: Back to the Starting Rotation for 2013

PostPost #73 by thezeroes » February 18th, 2013, 1:57 pm

Seafordeagles wrote:I can't find a risk like you stated.


My observation of the "Risk" with these pitchers that are on the proverbial bubble is that several of them are at their last option year. With this being the last year to send them down for seasoning and development it is best IMO to do this early in the year after some spring training success/failure than later in the year after having failed at MLB Level.

Look at Jake Arrieta in 2012. He was by default the opening day starter. He struggled at times until it became obvious he needed help in early July. His replacement was in Norfolk applying his new found mechanics and was called back to the parent club. He performed almost flawlessly until season end. He is now considered on of four starters going forward. Now it would seem the short term training and presumed loss of Tillman now will enhance both the Orioles chances of winning this year and beyond whether by performance or by his overall value if needed as trade bait.
thezeroes
GCL Orioles
 
Posts: 251
Joined: April 2011
Reputation Score: 38

Re: Back to the Starting Rotation for 2013

PostPost #74 by ofahn » February 18th, 2013, 3:47 pm

thezeroes wrote:
My observation of the "Risk" with these pitchers that are on the proverbial bubble is that several of them are at their last option year. With this being the last year to send them down for seasoning and development it is best IMO to do this early in the year after some spring training success/failure than later in the year after having failed at MLB Level.

Look at Jake Arrieta in 2012. He was by default the opening day starter. He struggled at times until it became obvious he needed help in early July. His replacement was in Norfolk applying his new found mechanics and was called back to the parent club. He performed almost flawlessly until season end. He is now considered on of four starters going forward. Now it would seem the short term training and presumed loss of Tillman now will enhance both the Orioles chances of winning this year and beyond whether by performance or by his overall value if needed as trade bait.


Thank you. That was well considered and carefully explained.

Seaford, I can understand the desire for instant gratification, but in the middle Eighties I worked out at the same gym as Rich Dauer and he told me that when he asked Earl Weaver how he always seemed to know JUST what was going to happen in a big situation, Earl told him that when everyone else was playing CHECKERS, he was playing CHESS. In essence, the game wasn't won with the NEXT move, it was won by being ready with the BEST move when it was needed.

Osforlife eloquently explained that Matusz, Britton, and Arrieta have much higher ceilings than Steve Johnson and T J McFarland, BUT if those two guys can pitch well enough to earn a spot on the team out of ST the organization will benefit from at least two of the former Cavalry developing into reliable and effective SPs. They could contribute this year and be desirable trade bait at the deadline or this coming winter.

We have a real chance of having an extra THREE legitimate young SPs available this winter, and we'll be at the point where we may be ready to spend those chips on the last piece necessary to bring a championship back to Baltimore. IMO THAT'S worth a LOT more than three or four meaningless extra wins this year.
User avatar
ofahn
Aberdeen IronBirds
 
Posts: 4402
Joined: May 2011
Reputation Score: 85

Re: Back to the Starting Rotation for 2013

PostPost #75 by Seafordeagles » February 18th, 2013, 5:22 pm

ofahn wrote:
Thank you. That was well considered and carefully explained.

Seaford, I can understand the desire for instant gratification, but in the middle Eighties I worked out at the same gym as Rich Dauer and he told me that when he asked Earl Weaver how he always seemed to know JUST what was going to happen in a big situation, Earl told him that when everyone else was playing CHECKERS, he was playing CHESS. In essence, the game wasn't won with the NEXT move, it was won by being ready with the BEST move when it was needed.

Osforlife eloquently explained that Matusz, Britton, and Arrieta have much higher ceilings than Steve Johnson and T J McFarland, BUT if those two guys can pitch well enough to earn a spot on the team out of ST the organization will benefit from at least two of the former Cavalry developing into reliable and effective SPs. They could contribute this year and be desirable trade bait at the deadline or this coming winter.

We have a real chance of having an extra THREE legitimate young SPs available this winter, and we'll be at the point where we may be ready to spend those chips on the last piece necessary to bring a championship back to Baltimore. IMO THAT'S worth a LOT more than three or four meaningless extra wins this year.


Do you think that we can win now?
Seafordeagles
GCL Orioles
 
Posts: 696
Joined: October 2012
Reputation Score: 18


PreviousNext

Return to Baltimore Orioles

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

cron