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Why do the O's need to make a move?

Why do the O's need to make a move?

PostPost #1 by Jordan Tuwiner » December 15th, 2012, 11:18 pm

Lots of people have been complaining on Twitter about how the Orioles haven't done much this season. I simply don't understand. I want them to do something as much as anyone. Trades are fun. FA signings are fun.

But we know who Dan Duquette is. He is someone who has shown he is not afraid to make a trade. If there was a good trade out there don't you think he would have made it?

Do you want the O's to go out and spend $$$ on these players?

I know it's frustrating to watch the Jays and Red Sox have these crazy off seasons. But, I just don't want the team to make a trade for the sake of making a trade.

The off season's not over year but I think there was not really much the Orioles could have done with their off season up to this point.
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Re: Why do the O's need to make a move?

PostPost #2 by ofahn » December 15th, 2012, 11:53 pm

The problem I see with making a "big move" is that we don't a have clear understanding of how the rest of the team is going to perform. We have good reason to believe the SP will play up to the same level as last year, but that's not a guarantee. The same goes for the bullpen. We have good reason to believe that Machado will improve, but it's not guaranteed. If Jones and Davis make the adjustments to take the holes out of their swings they could both be All Stars, but, again, there's no guarantee they will.

We could have added Hamilton and Greinke but if the other components of the team don't play up to last year we would be a 90 win team and not be guaranteed a playoff spot. If you doubt that look up the final standings for the 2012 Angels.

By next off season we should have a better track record for our younger players. If they play as well as they did last year, or improve, then I could justify making the investment in a "big move" to get us to the next level.
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Re: Why do the O's need to make a move?

PostPost #3 by Matt P » December 16th, 2012, 2:09 am

ofahn wrote: If Jones and Davis make the adjustments to take the holes out of their swings they could both be All Stars, but, again, there's no guarantee they will.

Do you really think that they can just magically fix their inabilities to lay off the breaking ball in the dirt?

Also, Jones has already been an All Star twice.
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Re: Why do the O's need to make a move?

PostPost #4 by Old Sneakers » December 16th, 2012, 3:33 am

I agree with what Jordan had to say as far as if the right deal was there, DD would pull the trigger.

My frustration is within the organization. Brian Matusz, Jake Arrieta and Chris Tillman are still unknowns and it's hurt the team and themselves. One or two of these guys should at this point be solid enough to entice other teams to make worthwhile trade offers. However, do to inconsistency this is not the case. We all know young pitchers are not instant successes. Many struggle and have growing pains. What we have had happen with these three so far is beyond frustrating. Please do not bring up Tillman's end to 2012. We do not know if he can sustain that success. If two of the three had just been back end starters with ERAs hovering around 4.50 their value would be far greater than it is today.

This is still the plan so far as I know. Grow the arms and buy the bats. Not through free agency but in trades. However this team needs to get a great deal better at growing arms than it's recent track record has shown. Yes some do not stick as starters but become worthwhile relievers. This trio has so much talent each of them that the only way I see them as relievers is in some non-existent dynastic team that does not exist.

What's the problem here? This is my frustration with the team.
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Re: Why do the O's need to make a move?

PostPost #5 by Seafordeagles » December 16th, 2012, 8:37 am

Jordan Tuwiner wrote:Do you want the O's to go out and spend $$$ on these players?


YES, I want the Orioles to SPEND money. YES, Josh Hamilton would have made a HUGE difference in the Orioles lineup. YES, the Orioles make tons of money and are ABLE to spend so much more then they are now. YES, the Orioles made money in 1996 and 1997 when the had one of the highest payrolls in baseball.

NO, they won't jump their payroll to be a consistently competitive team.
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Re: Why do the O's need to make a move?

PostPost #6 by thezeroes » December 16th, 2012, 8:43 am

Jordan had stated that the pitching for the upcoming season would look like this:
SP: Jason Hammel
SP: Chris Tillman
SP: Wei-Yin Chen
SP: Miguel Gonzalez
SP: Zach Britton

RP: Jim Johnson
RP: Pedro Strop
RP: Troy Patton
RP: Tommy Hunter
RP: Luis Ayala
RP: Darren O'Day
RP: Brian Matusz

This leaves Jake Arrieta and Steve Johnson at Norfolk as the first line of defense against an injury to the Starting Five. As I hear the reports, Tsuyoshi Wada will remain in Extended Spring Training and will at some point will make a push for the Rotation or Bullpen. If the Orioles sign Saunders this all gets a bump from either the projected Starting Five or the Relief Pitching by having to demote someone to Norfolk. With these players applying their trade in the Minors, the Pitching of the Orioles may very well be better than it was a year ago. I also believe that the leash on performance or lack thereof at the ML Level will be a lot shorter this year than in the past.

Dan Duquette and Buck Showalter have shown through out the 2012 campaign that they are more than willing to slide players back and forth to enhance the performance of the Orioles at the ML Level. Players with options will be at a premium coming out of Spring Training and those without Options may very well find themselves released or Designated for Assignment if they do not perform.

So to answer the question proposed by the thread title the only move I see that needs to be made is the signing of Joe Saunders to an incentive laden one year deal with a mutual option for 2014 based on incentives gained. A $4.5 million Base with incentives for games started that could raise it to $6.5 Million and what ever the final salary for 2013 would be the salary for 2014. (Brings a whole new meaning to playing for next years contract)
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Re: Why do the O's need to make a move?

PostPost #7 by birdwatcher55 » December 16th, 2012, 9:06 am

Who says we need to make a move??? I'm totally comfortable with our roster right now. We have reupped McLouth and with Reimold back I'm very comfortable with our LF situation; Nick is back in right and poised for a big season; and our starting pitching looks deep and talented with Bundy and Gausman on the horizon. As much as I would love to add Dickey to the mix,I would not want to weaken us in an area of strength by giving up our young pitching and OF prospects. Just my two cents 8-)
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Re: Why do the O's need to make a move?

PostPost #8 by ofahn » December 16th, 2012, 9:47 am

Matt P wrote:Do you really think that they can just magically fix their inabilities to lay off the breaking ball in the dirt?


There would be nothing "magical" about it, just good coaching and "want to".

Jones wants to be a leader. If Buck just had the video staff put together a DVD of Jones swinging at that same low outside pitch in segments titled April, May, June, and so on followed by a segment titled Playoffs he could spend his winter getting his head right about the major flaw in his game. He has shown he has the "want to".

Davis' story is about identical. He has that one big flaw. Let him see what the pitcher (and everyone else who's watching the game) sees. Last year he just wanted to prove to the league (and maybe himself) that he belonged at this level. Now, he has a chance to show how good he can really be. He's smart enough to know that he needs to get past this hurdle to go to the next level and he "wants to".

Matt P wrote:Also, Jones has already been an All Star twice.


Technically yes, legitimately, IMO no. His first selection was obligatory. We had to have a player on the team and he was the best choice. This last year we had three players but, IMO Jones went on his likeability and potential more than his performance.

Don't get me wrong, I think Adam Jones is a good player, but he has great in him. He just needs to accept what his main weakness is and he can be a perennial All Star. A true impact player and a real team leader.
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Re: Why do the O's need to make a move?

PostPost #9 by ofahn » December 16th, 2012, 9:50 am

Seafordeagles wrote:YES, Josh Hamilton would have made a HUGE difference in the Orioles lineup.


YES, that insanely STUPID contract that the Angels gave him could have WRECKED this franchise. LA wasn't even smart enough to include any clauses about his substance abuse. I don't wish failure on any human being, but I won't cry if this contract becomes a BIG HONKING PILE OF DUNG.
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Re: Why do the O's need to make a move?

PostPost #10 by Seafordeagles » December 16th, 2012, 10:33 am

ofahn wrote:
YES, that insanely STUPID contract that the Angels gave him could have WRECKED this franchise. LA wasn't even smart enough to include any clauses about his substance abuse. I don't wish failure on any human being, but I won't cry if this contract becomes a BIG HONKING PILE OF DUNG.


So you think Hamilton wouldn't make a huge difference in the lineup?

I can't figure out why you don't want the Orioles to spend substantial money on free agents, which is something they haven't done since Miguel Tejada. I've been reading your posts for a couple of months now and you always take the frugal side of contracts. It's almost like the Orioles are going to spend YOUR money. I'm all for spending a lot more money INSTEAD of pocketing the millions in profits, and YES, ANGELOS MAKES HUGE PROFITS.
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Re: Why do the O's need to make a move?

PostPost #11 by ofahn » December 16th, 2012, 10:44 am

Seafordeagles wrote:So you think Hamilton wouldn't make a huge difference in the lineup?


PLEASE carefully reread what I said:

that insanely STUPID contract that the Angels gave him could have WRECKED this franchise.


If he would have been willing to come here for ONE year at 25M I would have spent Angelos' money in a sh@t hot second, but I want to see the franchise prosper and giving Hamilton the kind of LUNATIC contract that LA did IMO would only hinder that goal.
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Re: Why do the O's need to make a move?

PostPost #12 by Jordan Tuwiner » December 16th, 2012, 11:58 am

Seafordeagles wrote:
YES, I want the Orioles to SPEND money. YES, Josh Hamilton would have made a HUGE difference in the Orioles lineup. YES, the Orioles make tons of money and are ABLE to spend so much more then they are now. YES, the Orioles made money in 1996 and 1997 when the had one of the highest payrolls in baseball.

NO, they won't jump their payroll to be a consistently competitive team.

I'd like them to spend money too, but they are not in a position to do so. If they were a surefire good team then spending money would be a good move. But, until the look like they are going to be good for a few years in a row I do not see a reason to use 1/4 of the payroll on a guy like Josh Hamilton.
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Re: Why do the O's need to make a move?

PostPost #13 by birdwatcher55 » December 16th, 2012, 12:43 pm

By signing Hamilton, they would have elevated their lineup to a new level. Angelos just won't spend money and has no desire to hit the $100m mark payroll wise. With the obscene amounts of money he makes off MASN, it makes no sense to me. If I'm Dan Duquette, I'm totally frustrated by this situation 8-)
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Re: Why do the O's need to make a move?

PostPost #14 by Jordan Tuwiner » December 16th, 2012, 1:05 pm

thezeroes wrote:So to answer the question proposed by the thread title the only move I see that needs to be made is the signing of Joe Saunders to an incentive laden one year deal with a mutual option for 2014 based on incentives gained. A $4.5 million Base with incentives for games started that could raise it to $6.5 Million and what ever the final salary for 2013 would be the salary for 2014. (Brings a whole new meaning to playing for next years contract)

Yeah, that's all I would really do at this point unless a bat becomes available at a reasonable price.
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Re: Why do the O's need to make a move?

PostPost #15 by Jordan Tuwiner » December 16th, 2012, 1:06 pm

birdwatcher55 wrote:By signing Hamilton, they would have elevated their lineup to a new level. Angelos just won't spend money and has no desire to hit the $100m mark payroll wise. With the obscene amounts of money he makes off MASN, it makes no sense to me. If I'm Dan Duquette, I'm totally frustrated by this situation 8-)

There is no reason for the Orioles to give 1/4 of their payroll to Hamilton. This team is in no position to do something like that.
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