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Duquette on O's pitching philosophy: "We don't like the cutter"

Duquette on O's pitching philosophy: "We don't like the cutter"

PostPost #1 by Jordan Tuwiner » August 16th, 2012, 11:51 pm

http://www.masnsports.com/steve_melewsk ... utter.html

"The philosophy of the organization is to encourage pitchers to develop a good delivery, command of their fastball, an off-speed pitch and a good breaking ball," Duquette said. "The first breaking ball that we work with our young pitchers on is a curveball. So that is basically the level of progression of our instruction and our organization philosophy.

"First of all, the cut fastball, we don't like it as a pitch, OK? And we don't like it for young pitchers because it takes away from the development of their curveball, which is a better pitch long-term and also, the velocity of their fastball. So we encourage development of an overhand breaking ball that has depth along with command of their fastball and, of course, velocity and movement will get the hitter out."

A little late posting this, but I wanted to hear some discussion on this topic.
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Re: Duquette on O's pitching philosophy: "We don't like the cutter"

PostPost #2 by A_K » August 17th, 2012, 12:27 am

Keith Law said on Baseball Today, after repeating a few quotes from this, that the entire baseball industry is laughing at Dan Duquette for these statements. He stopped just short of calling the man an idiot.

For what it's worth, I think DD really loathes the press and tends to lash out and make hyperbolic arguments when he's asked questions that annoy him. It's hard to imagine that he really believes some of this stuff.

On the other hand, I'll take a real philosophy over just playing things traditionally and riding the trends sweeping the league.
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Re: Duquette on O's pitching philosophy: "We don't like the cutter"

PostPost #3 by OriolesRedskins28 » August 17th, 2012, 1:36 am

A_K wrote:Keith Law said on Baseball Today, after repeating a few quotes from this, that the entire baseball industry is laughing at Dan Duquette for these statements. He stopped just short of calling the man an idiot.


Here's a fangraphs.com writer's take on the subject: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.ph ... e-cutters/

He says that Duquette is not alone in the philosophy that the cutter can be harmful to a young pitcher's development:

" Duquette states that developing the cutter takes away from time spent developing better pitches, but also that throwing the cutter leads to lowered arm strength and less fastball velocity. In an excellent article on Baseball America ($), Ben Badler did find many scouts that agreed with this sentiment. Most agreed with a caveat: if it’s thrown correctly (and has about the same velocity as his four-seam fastball), they think it’s a fine pitch that can help a pitcher iron out platoon issues by giving them a pitch with movement to the glove side. Others are more pessimistic and think it’s “hard on the arm” like the last pitch-du-jour, the split-finger fastball. Testing these ideas is as difficult as classifying the cutter. "

I'm not a big Law fan and I would value the statements made in this article much more highly than Law's words. This doesn't mean that Duquette is right, only that he is not the only one who feels this way (although he is taking it to the extreme with essentially banning the pitch from the Orioles' young pitchers' arsenals) and I SERIOUSLY doubt that the "whole baseball industry is laughing at him"... Law is the idiot.
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Re: Duquette on O's pitching philosophy: "We don't like the cutter"

PostPost #4 by OriolesRedskins28 » August 17th, 2012, 1:52 am

If Duquette and Peterson feel this way then I'm all for it. I trust their knowledge and intuitions regarding major league pitching. Who knows they may be wrong but is it THAT bad that the O's young pitchers being developed won't have a cutter? I think they will be fine and I like the organization's philosophy:

Jordan Tuwiner wrote:
The philosophy of the organization is to encourage pitchers to develop a good delivery, command of their fastball, an off-speed pitch and a good breaking ball



That seems like a solid formula for developing a ML pitcher (although of course each pitcher is different and no "cookie cutter" philosophy will work with everyone). I like that they implement REAL long toss into the pitchers' conditioning as well, it is beyond me how any MLB organizations still refuse to implement some variation of a real long toss program. Overall I am very happy with where the organization is from a pitching development stand point. I like that they have a plan and that they have reasons they feel strongly about for implementing that plan.
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Re: Duquette on O's pitching philosophy: "We don't like the cutter"

PostPost #5 by Matt P » August 17th, 2012, 1:55 am

I don't believe anything Duquette says.
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Re: Duquette on O's pitching philosophy: "We don't like the cutter"

PostPost #6 by Tucker Blair » August 17th, 2012, 2:12 am

Matt P wrote:I don't believe anything Duquette says.


I don't believe what anyone says anymore haha
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Re: Duquette on O's pitching philosophy: "We don't like the cutter"

PostPost #7 by Matt P » August 17th, 2012, 2:23 am

A_K wrote:Keith Law said on Baseball Today, after repeating a few quotes from this, that the entire baseball industry is laughing at Dan Duquette for these statements. He stopped just short of calling the man an idiot.

For what it's worth, I think DD really loathes the press and tends to lash out and make hyperbolic arguments when he's asked questions that annoy him. It's hard to imagine that he really believes some of this stuff.

On the other hand, I'll take a real philosophy over just playing things traditionally and riding the trends sweeping the league.

He was on Wednesday too and laughed off the idea of the Orioles being real contenders. Karabell mentioned a few times "well, they are first in the wild card". Keith said the O's were the biggest losers of this season as they overachieved, then played around .500 ball since the hot start, and because they are over .500 they didn't trade all the veterans on the team like they should have. I'm not sure why he hates the O's so much lol. He said they have no chance at making the playoffs and aren't nearly as good as Detroit, LA, or Tampa Bay.
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Re: Duquette on O's pitching philosophy: "We don't like the cutter"

PostPost #8 by Don » August 17th, 2012, 7:40 am

Basically I think it is a croc of crap. Anytime you take a pitch out of the back pocket, you are trying to mold someone into a pitcher they are not meant to be...

It is complete BS that the cutter is the specific reason your going to decrease velocity, hogwash. Any off speed offering that is done in large quantities will have the same effect. If you have a heavy curve ball diet, you will have inflamed aspects of your arm and the same fatigue and decreased speeds would result.

This whiff rate crap, does anyone know what this pitch is suppose to be, geez grab a freaking clue! It is meant to be an efficiency pitch, just like the 2S. It is not meant to miss bats, it is meant to miss the barrel and turn into a routine ground ball. This Whiff rate, it gets hit because there are plenty of pitchers that try to backdoor it, try to induce flailing swing, meaning they are trying to be cute with the pitch.

I wrote this piece on bullpen banter that goes into a bit of detail about the pitch, why it can be effective, and why Dylan should be allow to use it.

I will say this one little thing, have variety in your arsenal, maintain heavy fastball diet and sprinkle all of your off speed in a blended mix. Cookie Cutter molds do not work, they end up getting tagged, end up alienating pitchers.

I want you to look at last night start with Tillman. His curve was not working at all. He use to throw a cutter and if in small doses, it could have been that efficient offering to keep hitters honest. I am not advocating 20 cutters a night, but a handful would help get the hitter honest, and Geez Louise it will not decrease his arm speed.

http://bullpenbanter.com/why-limit-a-pi ... -a-cutter/
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Re: Duquette on O's pitching philosophy: "We don't like the cutter"

PostPost #9 by DashingDave314 » August 17th, 2012, 11:57 am

If it's so that Bundy can work more on his changeup and curveball, I'm all for it. I'd also like to see him try to develop a slider. That could really go well with his 4S fastball and cutter. And yes, I firmly believe that Dylan will be allowed to throw his cutter down the road. It is silly to suggest that Tillman, Ayala, and Gregg are allowed to throw cutters and Bundy won't be. We'll see how things play out, but for now, I like it.
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Re: Duquette on O's pitching philosophy: "We don't like the cutter"

PostPost #10 by birdwatcher55 » August 17th, 2012, 12:18 pm

I tend to agree with you Dave. Seems like much to do about nothing right now 8-)
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Re: Duquette on O's pitching philosophy: "We don't like the cutter"

PostPost #11 by DashingDave314 » August 17th, 2012, 12:33 pm

birdwatcher55 wrote:I tend to agree with you Dave. Seems like much to do about nothing right now 8-)


What's he going to learn from blowing guys away with his fastball and cutter? NOTHING. We have to find out if his changeup and curveball are going to develop into solid pitches. He's still throwing in side sessions. If he drops it from his side sessions, I'll be the first one to grab a pitchfork and torch and admit that I'm wrong.
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Re: Duquette on O's pitching philosophy: "We don't like the cutter"

PostPost #12 by OriolesRedskins28 » August 17th, 2012, 12:41 pm

Don wrote:Basically I think it is a croc of crap. Anytime you take a pitch out of the back pocket, you are trying to mold someone into a pitcher they are not meant to be...

It is complete BS that the cutter is the specific reason your going to decrease velocity, hogwash. Any off speed offering that is done in large quantities will have the same effect. If you have a heavy curve ball diet, you will have inflamed aspects of your arm and the same fatigue and decreased speeds would result.

This whiff rate crap, does anyone know what this pitch is suppose to be, geez grab a freaking clue! It is meant to be an efficiency pitch, just like the 2S. It is not meant to miss bats, it is meant to miss the barrel and turn into a routine ground ball. This Whiff rate, it gets hit because there are plenty of pitchers that try to backdoor it, try to induce flailing swing, meaning they are trying to be cute with the pitch.

I wrote this piece on bullpen banter that goes into a bit of detail about the pitch, why it can be effective, and why Dylan should be allow to use it.

I will say this one little thing, have variety in your arsenal, maintain heavy fastball diet and sprinkle all of your off speed in a blended mix. Cookie Cutter molds do not work, they end up getting tagged, end up alienating pitchers.

I want you to look at last night start with Tillman. His curve was not working at all. He use to throw a cutter and if in small doses, it could have been that efficient offering to keep hitters honest. I am not advocating 20 cutters a night, but a handful would help get the hitter honest, and Geez Louise it will not decrease his arm speed.

http://bullpenbanter.com/why-limit-a-pi ... -a-cutter/


It looked like Tillman threw multiple cutters last night which Jim Palmer pointed out on the broadcast.
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Re: Duquette on O's pitching philosophy: "We don't like the cutter"

PostPost #13 by DashingDave314 » August 17th, 2012, 12:47 pm

Don wrote:Basically I think it is a croc of crap. Anytime you take a pitch out of the back pocket, you are trying to mold someone into a pitcher they are not meant to be...

It is complete BS that the cutter is the specific reason your going to decrease velocity, hogwash. Any off speed offering that is done in large quantities will have the same effect. If you have a heavy curve ball diet, you will have inflamed aspects of your arm and the same fatigue and decreased speeds would result.

This whiff rate crap, does anyone know what this pitch is suppose to be, geez grab a freaking clue! It is meant to be an efficiency pitch, just like the 2S. It is not meant to miss bats, it is meant to miss the barrel and turn into a routine ground ball. This Whiff rate, it gets hit because there are plenty of pitchers that try to backdoor it, try to induce flailing swing, meaning they are trying to be cute with the pitch.

I wrote this piece on bullpen banter that goes into a bit of detail about the pitch, why it can be effective, and why Dylan should be allow to use it.

I will say this one little thing, have variety in your arsenal, maintain heavy fastball diet and sprinkle all of your off speed in a blended mix. Cookie Cutter molds do not work, they end up getting tagged, end up alienating pitchers.

I want you to look at last night start with Tillman. His curve was not working at all. He use to throw a cutter and if in small doses, it could have been that efficient offering to keep hitters honest. I am not advocating 20 cutters a night, but a handful would help get the hitter honest, and Geez Louise it will not decrease his arm speed.

http://bullpenbanter.com/why-limit-a-pi ... -a-cutter/


Tillman was using his cutter last night. Granted, his cutter is not that good, but still.
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Re: Duquette on O's pitching philosophy: "We don't like the cutter"

PostPost #14 by Matt P » August 17th, 2012, 1:14 pm

Tillman uses the cutter a couple of times every game. I remember when he almost threw the no hitter vs Texas they couldn't hit it.
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Re: Duquette on O's pitching philosophy: "We don't like the cutter"

PostPost #15 by A_K » August 17th, 2012, 1:44 pm

Yeah, I was listening to that episode too. Honestly, if you take his condescending tone out of the comments, he actually didn't say much that I disagree with. The O's did get off to a hot start and have played .500 ball ever since. I don't consider this team as presently constituted legitimate contenders. The team's performance did result in us hanging on to potential trade chips, and also giving up a pretty good prospect to acquire Jim Thome. I don't think the O's are better than Tampa, Detroit or Anaheim. So ultimately, I'm kind of on the same page with him, but I wish he could state his opinion less dismissively. It wouldn't be hard to say, "I don't really think they're a good team, but if they find their way into the playoffs it doesn't matter how they did it." He's just a bit too dogmatic in his devotion to sabermetrics, even though I agree with virtually all of his general positions.

Here's the thing about Bundy's cutter: it was his best pitch. Some scouts said it was an 80 on the scouting scale. If they want him to put it away while he really develops his three base pitches, I think that's reasonable, as long as they eventually let him throw it again. But simply saying no one can throw a cutter-- across the board, without exceptions-- doesn't make any more sense than any other level of fundamentalist thought.
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