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What's wrong with the Guthrie trade?

Re: What's wrong with the Guthrie trade?

PostPost #16 by birdwatcher55 » February 7th, 2012, 6:44 pm

Nice thinking outside of the box "thezeroes"... 8-)
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Re: What's wrong with the Guthrie trade?

PostPost #17 by A_K » February 8th, 2012, 12:10 pm

Perhaps it's true that Arrieta, Matusz and Britton need more time in the minors. No one thought so three months ago, but that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't true. If DD has scouted the kids and that's the conclusion at which he arrived, then perhaps stacking the staff with five new back-of-the-rotation starters makes a lot of sense. Still, since I never heard any fan voice this sentiment back in September, it sounds an awful lot like delusional revisionism to me.

I'm not sure I can see how Arrieta, Matusz, Britton, or even Tillman, can benefit from pitching in AAA. I also recognize that it's impossible for any baseball team to approach a .500 record with a starting rotation consisting of Chen-Wada-Hammel-Hunter. Combining those two observations, it's hard for me to grasp the wisdom of what's been done with our pitching staff.

Depth is a good thing. Having to throw out people who couldn't defend themselves over the last two years wasn't much fun. But you aren't adding depth if the depth you add is immediately moved to the front of the line. What sense does it make to build depth, only to keep your highest upside players as the guys keeping the bench (or AAA rotation spots) warm?
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Re: What's wrong with the Guthrie trade?

PostPost #18 by ofahn » February 8th, 2012, 1:22 pm

Still, since I never heard any fan voice this sentiment back in September, it sounds an awful lot like delusional revisionism to me.


I posted this on 9/28
I would prefer that we limit the number of openings in the starting rotation this winter so our pitchers have motivation to work hard and earn a spot.
and this on 10/4
I don't care whether adding starters "blocks" some of our kids because a few of those kids are BLOCKHEADS. They spent last winter polishing their name tag on their locker instead of getting in shape. They need to understand that there will be a dogfight for a rotation spot in spring training and nothing will be given to them.
and this on 12/30
Maybe I'm a crowd of one on this subject but I would prefer to see us add as much starting pitching as possible before camp starts. It would make up for a lot of bad luck. Players come to camp out of shape? Covered. Injuries? Covered. Sub par performance? Covered.

Let's say we do bring ten potential starters into camp and eight of them pitch well enough to go north. You only need five, so maybe two of them have options. The third guy becomes trade bait for a team that thinks they're going to compete but had a disappointment in their projected rotation. You move the salary and get something back for them.
and this on 1/6
I'm not afraid of starting with five veteran imports in the starting rotation if they are pitching effectively. IMO, none of our young pitchers have earned a spot on the 25 man roster yet. A couple of them may break camp with the big club by default, but that's not the same thing as earning a spot. Effective starting pitching is always in demand so we won't have any trouble moving these vets for a fair return during the season as the kids earn their spots.
and this on 1/24
Frankly, I'd be happy if Britton, Arrietta, Matusz, Bergesen, and Berken started the season at AAA. DD has put together a quality development staff and those guys could certainly use some of that. Maybe DD is thinking the same thing because Guthrie, Chen, Wada, Hunter, Eveland, and some of the minor league signings could fill a starting rotation if they had to. Burnett would fit in with that mob. In July you could start trading veterans for prospects and bring up deserving pitchers from AAA. If the pitcher stiffs (even Burnett) then waive them and move on.
and this on 2/3
I feel the same way and suggested exactly that in another post. Having Wada and Eveland pitch so well that the team feels comfortable breaking camp with them would only boost the level of talent on this team. As the younger pitchers at AAA convince the FO that they are ready to return to the majors we can trade Eveland for a modest return and Guthrie for a solid return. IMO part of any Guthrie trade should include a ML ready pitcher with remaining options that can placed at AAA. This team has little pitching depth at AA that's not at least two years away from the majors.

Wada may show he's a really a ML reliever which opens another spot in the rotation.

All of this would force Britton, Arrieta, Matusz, and Tillman to EARN their return to the majors. Maybe they will develop a whole new respect for that opportunity.
and this on 2/6
IMO if Eveland out pitches the kids in spring training he gets the spot. The team doesn't have to eat his contract if they have options on the kids. I still think that all of the kids start the year in AAA unless some of the new blood completely collapse during the spring.


I have always thought it was good idea.
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Re: What's wrong with the Guthrie trade?

PostPost #19 by Rising O's » February 8th, 2012, 1:49 pm

The trade is okay in that we get 2 players under out control for an additional year. Their value should go up as they move out of Colorado.

Not sure why anyone would lump Arrieta with Britton and Tillman. Arrieta's only problem was he tried to pitch through an injury instead of having it taken care of sooner. I blame that on the player and our cracked staff. But he's been in shape and has shown me enough to believe he will be a solid ML mid-rotation starter.
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Re: What's wrong with the Guthrie trade?

PostPost #20 by A_K » February 8th, 2012, 2:01 pm

ofahn has hereby proven that he/she at the very least has long supported the rationale of adding veteran pitchers to the staff in order to force young pitchers to earn their way onto the team.

It still doesn't strike me that that was ever a majority opinion, and certainly I don't recall it being the opinion of many of the high profile bloggers and beat reporters who are now defending the move and its rationale.
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Re: What's wrong with the Guthrie trade?

PostPost #21 by ofahn » February 8th, 2012, 2:22 pm

Please don't mistake my preference to start the kids at AAA as any form of satisfaction with the Guthrie trade. I accept that it was the best we were going to get under the circumstances. It's the CIRCUMSTANCES that disappoint me. Why Guthrie wasn't traded last July is, IMO, beyond justification. It's being reported that Guthrie's salary was part of it. SO WHAT! Just add some money to the deal and you get back a better prospect. An IDIOT could have looked at our system LAST JULY and understood that it was almost barren of pitching above A ball.

We got Tommy Hunter from Texas because we included 2M along with Koji. Does anyone really believe that teams would have preferred Koji and 2M over Guthrie and 4M? Sure, paying 4M for a B level or better prospect is above the market but it would have given us the equivalent another 1st or 2nd round pick from the 2009 or 2010 draft. In my book that would have been a bargain.

I have to accept how things worked out but I don't have to like it.
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