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Missing on Bronson Arroyo isn't devastating

Missing on Bronson Arroyo isn't devastating

PostPost #1 by Tucker Blair » February 10th, 2014, 8:45 am

The latest from Jeff:

Missing on Bronson Arroyo isn't devastating http://bit.ly/1loyqWZ

Agree? Disagree?
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Re: Missing on Bronson Arroyo isn't devastating

PostPost #2 by AlexConway » February 10th, 2014, 10:46 am

TuckerBlair89 wrote:The latest from Jeff:

Missing on Bronson Arroyo isn't devastating http://bit.ly/1loyqWZ

Agree? Disagree?


I would agree with Jeff mostly. Bronson Arroyo doesn't turn the Orioles into a World Series Contender. However, what Arroyo brings to the table is 200 Innings of mediocre pitching, which is not a useless thing. He won't win you a championship but he is solid and pitches a lot. Since he didn't require the draft pick compensation I thought he made sense as a target in conjunction with signing another pitcher. But, I am not overly disappointed in missing out on Arroyo, he is nothing special. Glancing at Santana's stats shows me a much more capable pitcher, but at a much higher current and future cost. You have to weigh the costs in situations like these. Duquette is going to have some work to do to get that payroll close to $100M
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Re: Missing on Bronson Arroyo isn't devastating

PostPost #3 by Seafordeagles » February 10th, 2014, 10:57 am

Am I devastated? No, I just want a innings eater. Right now here's the starting rotation, that may or may not be set in stone.

Tillman
Chen
Gonzalez
Norris

Who's #5? No one knows. The 4 I listed could all be around the .500 level for wins and losses. They also could fall well below.

The fans were TOLD when Jim Johnson was traded for a bag of balls that the money saved from signing him would be spent on improving the team. It hasn't been spent, I believe it won't be spent, and the national tv revenue will be pocketed as well.

Peter Schmuck had another good article yesterday about the situation. As fans of the Orioles we are going to have to wait for the farm system to kick in. Duquette has been on record about that on numerous occasions. All the Orioles eggs in the basket are banking on the prospects. To build a winner you need 3 things, minor league system, free agents, and astute trades. That's how you build a team. That is what the Orioles are not doing.

Duquette made mid season trades the last 2 years and gave up some pretty good prospects. Plus they gave up the #31 player in the upcoming draft in the Norris deal. Now he says he want to rely on the farm system. That's confusing. The only player we have left from his 2 years of midseason trades is Bud Norris. Everyone else was rentals. That's not how you build a team.

We as Orioles fans are used to the way the Orioles do business. It doesn't matter who the general manager is. It all comes back to one person, and his sons are clones of his. If something happens to him nothing will change. The Orioles way of conducting business is alienating other teams, free agents, and there own players about signing extensions.
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Re: Missing on Bronson Arroyo isn't devastating

PostPost #4 by Old Sneakers » February 10th, 2014, 1:15 pm

Bronson Arroyo is not one of the guys on my list of people to sign. His HR's surrendered frighten me. In OPACY it likely would have resulted in mutiny.

But, the team needs an inning eater. That requires spending some money. The team has money. They need to get it done. Someone tell the folks at the warehouse A.J. Burnett would fit the bill nicely. One or two years would help a ton even if he begins to show his age a little.
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Re: Missing on Bronson Arroyo isn't devastating

PostPost #5 by osforlife » February 10th, 2014, 7:16 pm

No, losing out on Bronson Arroyo specifically is not devastating. Losing the many potential options that could have easily fit into Baltimore, to other teams, and watching them get better, is insanely frustrating. We, the fans of the Baltimore Orioles, aren't expecting the front office to sign a pitcher tied to draft pick compensation. We aren't expecting the front office to sign Masahiro Tanaka or Yu Darvish. The Orioles aren't going to get its best players from the free agent market, we get it. However, we do expect the team to complement its core, through solid, but not bank-breaking acquisitions. And if you're going to build the team through the farm system, don't trade away the farm system at the all-star break. LJ Hoes, Nick Delmonico, Josh Hader, Xavier Avery, and that compensation pick should still be in the Orioles' minor leagues. If DD doesn't come out of this off-season with at least one starting pitcher, he is a failure as a GM, a liar, and will be president of a last place team. And no, Alfredo Aceves is not a starting pitcher. Here are the pitchers that could have easily come to Baltimore;

1. Bronson Arroyo- 2/$23.5
2. Dylan Axelrod- 1 + controllable years/minor
3. Scott Baker- 1/minor
4. Bartolo Colon- 2/$20
5. Gavin Floyd- 1/$4
6. Dan Haren- 1/$10
7. Tim Hudson- 2/$23
8. Josh Johnson- 1/$8
9. Scott Kazmir- 2/$22
10. Shaun Marcum- 1/minor
11. Ryan Vogelsong- 1/$5
12. Tsuyoshi Wada- 1/minor

All would have been welcome additions to Baltimore. Now, the Orioles are practically left with;

1. Suk-Min Yoon
2. Joe Saunders
3. Chris Capuano
4. AJ Burnett

Keep in mind, that these are the projections for the four locked in Orioles starters for 2014;

Chris Tillman; 4.32 ERA, 1.32 WHIP, 2.31 SO/BB
Miguel Gonzalez; 4.47 ERA, 1.35 WHIP, 2.15 SO/BB
Wei Yin Chen; 4.29 ERA, 1.31 WHIP, 2.49 SO/BB
Bud Norris; 4.38 ERA, 1.36 WHIP, 2.12 SO/BB

Talk about lack of an ace. The good thing is that there is no true weak link either. There is no point looking for an ace outside of the organization. #1's are grown from the farm system for a team like the Orioles. There is virtually no depth behind those four, unless you want to rush starting pitching prospects again, and we all know how well that turned out the first, second, and third times. That starting four would produce an average ERA of 4.37, which would have been 24th in the league last year; hardly an upgrade from 27th last year. And that is assuming they all stay healthy, and Baltimore's 5th starter isn't some garbage that is being mentioned as possible 5th starters. The Orioles need TWO starters. The Orioles will not have a good rotation next year regardless of who they sign. They just need to make sure they aren't in the bottom 1/3. I expect the offense will be good enough to ensure that the pitcher's don't have to produce in the top ten, they just need to make sure they aren't in the bottom ten. 0% of the teams with a team starter's ERA in the bottom half of the league made the playoffs.
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Re: Missing on Bronson Arroyo isn't devastating

PostPost #6 by Old Sneakers » February 10th, 2014, 7:21 pm

I was wondering if Suk-Min Yoon is a starter or reliever. I am not all that sure he holds much value as a reliever. They must get a SP to hope for anything.
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Re: Missing on Bronson Arroyo isn't devastating

PostPost #7 by ofahn » February 17th, 2014, 11:29 am

osforlife wrote:1. Bronson Arroyo- 2/$23.5
2. Dylan Axelrod- 1 + controllable years/minor
3. Scott Baker- 1/minor
4. Bartolo Colon- 2/$20
5. Gavin Floyd- 1/$4
6. Dan Haren- 1/$10
7. Tim Hudson- 2/$23
8. Josh Johnson- 1/$8
9. Scott Kazmir- 2/$22
10. Shaun Marcum- 1/minor
11. Ryan Vogelsong- 1/$5
12. Tsuyoshi Wada- 1/minor

All would have been welcome additions to Baltimore. Now, the Orioles are practically left with;

1. Suk-Min Yoon
2. Joe Saunders
3. Chris Capuano
4. AJ Burnett

Bronson Arroyo- 2/$23.5 With the money being about equal he decided he preferred pitching for a NL contender
Scott Baker- 1/minor Camden Yards is NOT viewed by most pitchers as the optimal place to rebuild value
Bartolo Colon- 2/$20 He found a team willing to guarantee TWO years
Gavin Floyd- 1/$4 Camden Yards is NOT viewed by most pitchers as the optimal place to rebuild value
Dan Haren- 1/$10 Found a team stupid enough to pay him that much
Tim Hudson- 2/$23 Preferred to stay in the NL
Josh Johnson- 1/$8 Camden Yards is NOT viewed by most pitchers as the optimal place to rebuild value
Scott Kazmir- 2/$22 Found a team stupid enough to pay him that much
Shaun Marcum- 1/minor Camden Yards is NOT viewed by most pitchers as the optimal place to rebuild value
Tsuyoshi Wada- 1/minor Wasn't going to happen. I'm sure DD felt the talent wasn't worth having to explain to Angelos why the team had lost any MORE money on him
Suk-Min Yoon SIGNED
Joe Saunders Camden Yards is NOT viewed by most pitchers as the optimal place to rebuild value
Chris Capuano At 3M or less a reasonable option
AJ Burnett Found a team stupid enough to pay him that much

As Ervin Santana's price gets closer to something reasonable I could justify giving up the draft pick for him. We'll see.
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Re: Missing on Bronson Arroyo isn't devastating

PostPost #8 by osforlife » February 17th, 2014, 2:25 pm

ofahn wrote:Bronson Arroyo- 2/$23.5 With the money being about equal he decided he preferred pitching for a NL contender
Scott Baker- 1/minor Camden Yards is NOT viewed by most pitchers as the optimal place to rebuild value
Bartolo Colon- 2/$20 He found a team willing to guarantee TWO years
Gavin Floyd- 1/$4 Camden Yards is NOT viewed by most pitchers as the optimal place to rebuild value
Dan Haren- 1/$10 Found a team stupid enough to pay him that much
Tim Hudson- 2/$23 Preferred to stay in the NL
Josh Johnson- 1/$8 Camden Yards is NOT viewed by most pitchers as the optimal place to rebuild value
Scott Kazmir- 2/$22 Found a team stupid enough to pay him that much
Shaun Marcum- 1/minor Camden Yards is NOT viewed by most pitchers as the optimal place to rebuild value
Tsuyoshi Wada- 1/minor Wasn't going to happen. I'm sure DD felt the talent wasn't worth having to explain to Angelos why the team had lost any MORE money on him
Suk-Min Yoon SIGNED
Joe Saunders Camden Yards is NOT viewed by most pitchers as the optimal place to rebuild value
Chris Capuano At 3M or less a reasonable option
AJ Burnett Found a team stupid enough to pay him that much

As Ervin Santana's price gets closer to something reasonable I could justify giving up the draft pick for him. We'll see.


I find it hard that you can make that many excuses. You're right, some of these pitchers aren't the best fits. But free agency is waiting for the perfect fit. You don't have to make a bad deal, but you can't cherry pick. I'm glad Baltimore got Yoon, but he is not enough. Shaun Marcum got a minor league deal. Why not offer a very low base major league deal? If Kelvin De La Cruz and Edgmer Escalona are worth major league deals, then so are Marcum and Baker.
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Re: Missing on Bronson Arroyo isn't devastating

PostPost #9 by Seafordeagles » February 17th, 2014, 2:47 pm

osforlife wrote:I find it hard that you can make that many excuses.


I plead the 5th..........................
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Re: Missing on Bronson Arroyo isn't devastating

PostPost #10 by ofahn » February 17th, 2014, 8:29 pm

osforlife wrote:I find it hard that you can make that many excuses.

What you may view as an excuse I see as a rational and logical reason.

Camden yards and the AL East are not the places pitchers want to go to rebuild value. You have to SERIOUSLY overpay marginal talent to come here. The Jimenez signing is a perfect example. As Roch Kubatko pointed out today
Jimenez, 30, is more willing to pitch in the American League.

http://www.masnsports.com/school_of_roc ... menez.html
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Re: Missing on Bronson Arroyo isn't devastating

PostPost #11 by ofahn » February 17th, 2014, 8:30 pm

ofahn wrote:What you may view as an excuse I see as a rational and logical reason.

Camden Yards and the AL East are not the places pitchers want to go to rebuild value. You have to SERIOUSLY overpay marginal talent to come here. The Jimenez signing is a perfect example. As Roch Kubatko pointed out today

http://www.masnsports.com/school_of_roc ... menez.html
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Re: Missing on Bronson Arroyo isn't devastating

PostPost #12 by mikezpen » February 17th, 2014, 8:43 pm

best failed signing we ever had

Guy was Home Run City in the NL Central. What w/he be in the AL East?
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Re: Missing on Bronson Arroyo isn't devastating

PostPost #13 by Seafordeagles » February 17th, 2014, 9:43 pm

mikezpen wrote:best failed signing we ever had

Guy was Home Run City in the NL Central. What w/he be in the AL East?


Are we a better team with Jimenez?
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Re: Missing on Bronson Arroyo isn't devastating

PostPost #14 by ofahn » February 17th, 2014, 10:04 pm

Seafordeagles wrote:
Are we a better team with Jimenez?

Yes; but at what cost and is it enough to make a difference?

My heart wants this to work out, but my head is worried that we have seriously hurt our chances of building a winner. Let's hope that Dave Wallace and Rick Peterson can straighten him out.
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Re: Missing on Bronson Arroyo isn't devastating

PostPost #15 by Seafordeagles » February 17th, 2014, 10:13 pm

This from Melewski:

"Jimenez capped his solid 2013 season, where he went 13-9 with a 3.30 ERA for Cleveland, with an exceptional finish. In 13 starts after the All-Star Game, he went 6-5 with a 1.82 ERA and 100 strikeouts over 84 innings. He pitched to an ERA of 1.09 in six September starts, which included six shutout innings against the Orioles on Sept. 3."


The only thing I can say is that the Orioles did not have a starting pitcher with a .ERA as low as that. He's never been hurt, always makes his starts. Was I a fan of his? No. I am a fan of his now.
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