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It goes from BAD TO WORSE--nationals to sign Nate Mclouth

It goes from BAD TO WORSE--nationals to sign Nate Mclouth

PostPost #1 by Seafordeagles » December 6th, 2013, 4:56 pm

Come on Danny boy it's your turn...................


http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/12/n ... louth.html
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Re: It goes from BAD TO WORSE--nationals to sign Nate Mclouth

PostPost #2 by Old Sneakers » December 6th, 2013, 5:28 pm

http://www.masnsports.com/school_of_roch/2013/12/notes-on-wolf-and-johnson.html

The Orioles wanted to bring back McLouth, who signed a one-year, $2 million deal during last year's Winter Meetings. However, early projections had him getting $10 million over two years.

No further details are available at the moment, but the deal is believed to be in the $10-$11 million range.

Good for him.

McLouth batted .258/.329/.399 with 12 homers, 36 RBIs and 30 stolen bases.


2 years at $10-11 million... Yeah good for him.
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Re: It goes from BAD TO WORSE--nationals to sign Nate Mclouth

PostPost #3 by osforlife » December 6th, 2013, 8:06 pm

I'd say Nate McLouth is basically worth that money; maybe it was a slight overpay. But it was still a good deal for the Nationals. I've always thought it's smart to carry four outfielders capable of starting on a baseball team, maybe five it it's a national league. I bet Corey Brown is now available! I'd be interesting in attaining him. Bryce Harper, Jayson Werth, Denard Span, Nate McLouth, Scott Hairston, and Eury Perez are ahead of him on the depth chart. He's proven he can hit at AAA.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minor ... own-002cor

He can hit for power, steal a good amount of bases, and I'm sure he hits RHP very well.
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Re: It goes from BAD TO WORSE--nationals to sign Nate Mclouth

PostPost #4 by Seafordeagles » December 6th, 2013, 8:26 pm

osforlife wrote:I'd say Nate McLouth is basically worth that money; maybe it was a slight overpay. But it was still a good deal for the Nationals. I've always thought it's smart to carry four outfielders capable of starting on a baseball team, maybe five it it's a national league. I bet Corey Brown is now available! I'd be interesting in attaining him. Bryce Harper, Jayson Werth, Denard Span, Nate McLouth, Scott Hairston, and Eury Perez are ahead of him on the depth chart. He's proven he can hit at AAA.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minor ... own-002cor

He can hit for power, steal a good amount of bases, and I'm sure he hits RHP very well.


You make some good points. You think "it's smart to carry four outfielders capable of starting on a baseball team" like the nationals are doing. When it comes to the Orioles you want guys like Brown and Dyson that can be had fairly cheap. Why won't the Orioles want to carry four outfielders capable of starting? Why are the Orioles not going after major league players and stars with good track records? Please don't say it's the money. I know better, you know better, and everyone knows better. The Orioles are not poor even though they want everyone to think they are.

The difference between the Orioles and successful baseball teams is their owners want to win championships. To the Orioles the bottom line is huge profits and Angelos has been raking in the cash.

It would be nice to see Angelos go all in like he did in 96 and 97. He's done it before, now he chooses not to. The fans of Baltimore will suffer again and deserve so much more. It's time to move Davis and Wieters because they are getting much too expensive. Manny is the next to go. Then 5 years from now Gausman (providing he is successful), same with Bundy.

Keep the young guys for 4 or 5 years, dump them when they have success because they're going to cost too much money and the cycle keeps going and going.
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Re: It goes from BAD TO WORSE--nationals to sign Nate Mclouth

PostPost #5 by osforlife » December 7th, 2013, 12:27 pm

Seafordeagles wrote:
You make some good points. You think "it's smart to carry four outfielders capable of starting on a baseball team" like the nationals are doing. When it comes to the Orioles you want guys like Brown and Dyson that can be had fairly cheap. Why won't the Orioles want to carry four outfielders capable of starting? Why are the Orioles not going after major league players and stars with good track records? Please don't say it's the money. I know better, you know better, and everyone knows better. The Orioles are not poor even though they want everyone to think they are.


I'm no expert in economics, but what makes you think Angelos is rolling in cash? Doesn't team payroll relate to average attendance?

Attendance; Team Payroll

2013- 18th; 15th
2012- 20th; 19th
2011- 26th; 18th
2010- 24th; 17th
2009- 21st; 23rd
2008- 24th; 22nd
2007- 23rd; 10th
2006- 20th; 15th
2005- 14th; 14th
2004- 12th; 20th
2003- 12th; 13th
2002- 10th; 16th
2001- 6th; 12th

Average- 17th; 16th. It doesn't seem like he's being cheap to me, as his attendance and team payroll match up just about perfectly. This is not 1997/1998. The economy was booming during Clinton's presidency. Demographics have changed most likely. Things change. Angelos is putting forth the money that the attendance offers him. I don't think an owner would be able to sustain a top ten payroll with not even a top fifteen attendance. The higher the attendance, the higher the payroll. As you can see in 2011-2013, a higher payroll does not necessarily mean a higher total of wins. The fact of the matter is, although the Orioles were a high payroll team in the late 90's, as I'm sure they were a top ten attendance team, they are no longer a top payroll team. The Orioles are a mid-market team. Until the attendance increases, the payroll won't. Fans come to see wins, not players. The off-season isn't even over. What makes you think Angelos doesn't want win?

The reason looking for minor league players is a good idea, is because the Orioles are financially heavy right now. I propose trading for and/or signing players with minor league success, but with no major league success, because a lot of those instances, the player has never gotten a chance to play regularly in the MLB. Doesn't it make sense that if a player can hit well in the second best baseball league on the planet, that he should be given a chance to hit well in the best baseball league on the planet? Hence; Corey Brown. He would come cheap, and he would be a possibility for my off-season plan because I'd look into signing both Masahiro Tanaka and Chris Capuano, who would cost a lot of money.
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Re: It goes from BAD TO WORSE--nationals to sign Nate Mclouth

PostPost #6 by Seafordeagles » December 7th, 2013, 4:57 pm

Attendance has nothing to do with what and how much he spends. angelos makes a lot of money that's not tied to attendance figures. Try looking at attendance figures when Angelos DID SPEND MONEY................
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Re: It goes from BAD TO WORSE--nationals to sign Nate Mclouth

PostPost #7 by osforlife » December 7th, 2013, 7:22 pm

Seafordeagles wrote:Attendance has nothing to do with what and how much he spends. angelos makes a lot of money that's not tied to attendance figures. Try looking at attendance figures when Angelos DID SPEND MONEY................

I found this very article very useful; http://www.askmen.com/sports/business/1 ... iness.html

I'd say a proper thesis would be; If attendance numbers increase, then so will the team payroll. Not; If the team payroll increases, then so will the attendance numbers.
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Re: It goes from BAD TO WORSE--nationals to sign Nate Mclouth

PostPost #8 by thezeroes » December 8th, 2013, 6:55 pm

I think the article that you have been so kind as to share with this forum is a must read by all posters on this site and others.

As fans we only see a small part of the expenses (mostly the posted 25 man roster) and seldom think about the other related expenses. Most of the Orioles fans base have put the blame for not spending on free agents at Peter Angelos feet. This may be a partial issue of the spending problem but the other is the overall cost in years of the current MLB Players. McLouth is projected as a .9 and .7 war at Fan Graphs over the next two years and that would translate into an $8 Million two year salary.
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?pl ... n=OF#value

Now the current salary is to be $10/$11 million over two and is by most standards an average of $1.25 million Per Year in overpay. I would let the Nat's cover that extra expense as McLouth ages and his number one asset (Speed) diminishes. And the fWAR value is based on 500 Plate Appearances which he will not get in a Platoon Situation. So you could deduct another $1Million per year in value based on less playing time.
Nate McLouth's value would be at or about at $3.5 Million per year over the next two years. IMO
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Re: It goes from BAD TO WORSE--nationals to sign Nate Mclouth

PostPost #9 by Seafordeagles » December 8th, 2013, 7:40 pm

osforlife wrote:I found this very article very useful; http://www.askmen.com/sports/business/1 ... iness.html

I'd say a proper thesis would be; If attendance numbers increase, then so will the team payroll. Not; If the team payroll increases, then so will the attendance numbers.


You may want to send this link to Peter Schmuck. Please read his article I posted earlier.
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Re: It goes from BAD TO WORSE--nationals to sign Nate Mclouth

PostPost #10 by osforlife » December 9th, 2013, 7:47 pm

Seafordeagles wrote:
You may want to send this link to Peter Schmuck. Please read his article I posted earlier.

Basically my reaction from that article is...do fans/writers realize the off-season is not over? Fans complain every year, with the heart of it coming before the winter meetings even start. They get pissed off that the GM hasn't overpaid for an aging star, and instead has simply made depth moves. The only way to please them would be to start the off-season out with a bang, and then fill out the depth. There's nothing wrong with adding depth, and then filling a hole. It's almost like Oriole fans want to give up a first round pick in order to pay a diminishing 37 year old outfielder/DH $15MM a year for the player he used to be, not the player he will be. Orioles signed Wei Yen Chen on Jaunary 10th of 2012. JJ Hardy was acquired three years ago today. Orioles signed Tsuyoshi Wada on December 14th, 2011. There is such a thing as making a major league transaction past November and/or the first week of December. I say the Orioles attendance and payroll practically is identical in terms of MLB rank, but you say Peter Angelos makes money from stuff other than tickets. Then I provide an article of everything the owner has to pay for other than the opening day payroll. Yet, you still insist he's being cheap because he hasn't made a major move? The off-season is not over yet.
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Re: It goes from BAD TO WORSE--nationals to sign Nate Mclouth

PostPost #11 by Seafordeagles » December 9th, 2013, 7:59 pm

osforlife wrote:Basically my reaction from that article is...do fans/writers realize the off-season is not over? Fans complain every year, with the heart of it coming before the winter meetings even start. They get pissed off that the GM hasn't overpaid for an aging star, and instead has simply made depth moves. The only way to please them would be to start the off-season out with a bang, and then fill out the depth. There's nothing wrong with adding depth, and then filling a hole. It's almost like Oriole fans want to give up a first round pick in order to pay a diminishing 37 year old outfielder/DH $15MM a year for the player he used to be, not the player he will be. Orioles signed Wei Yen Chen on Jaunary 10th of 2012. JJ Hardy was acquired three years ago today. Orioles signed Tsuyoshi Wada on December 14th, 2011. There is such a thing as making a major league transaction past November and/or the first week of December. I say the Orioles attendance and payroll practically is identical in terms of MLB rank, but you say Peter Angelos makes money from stuff other than tickets. Then I provide an article of everything the owner has to pay for other than the opening day payroll. Yet, you still insist he's being cheap because he hasn't made a major move? The off-season is not over yet.


Hey I didn't right that article in the Baltimore Sun. Peter Schmuck did. I was just letting you know it was out there and others feel the same way I do. This guy just happens to write for the Sun. I know the winter meetings just started, relax, I'm on board with the tight wad owner.
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Re: It goes from BAD TO WORSE--nationals to sign Nate Mclouth

PostPost #12 by ofahn » December 17th, 2013, 3:56 pm

osforlife wrote:I'm no expert in economics, but what makes you think Angelos is rolling in cash? Doesn't team payroll relate to average attendance?

Attendance; Team Payroll

2013- 18th; 15th
2012- 20th; 19th
2011- 26th; 18th
2010- 24th; 17th
2009- 21st; 23rd
2008- 24th; 22nd
2007- 23rd; 10th
2006- 20th; 15th
2005- 14th; 14th
2004- 12th; 20th
2003- 12th; 13th
2002- 10th; 16th
2001- 6th; 12th

Average- 17th; 16th. It doesn't seem like he's being cheap to me, as his attendance and team payroll match up just about perfectly. This is not 1997/1998. The economy was booming during Clinton's presidency. Demographics have changed most likely. Things change. Angelos is putting forth the money that the attendance offers him. I don't think an owner would be able to sustain a top ten payroll with not even a top fifteen attendance. The higher the attendance, the higher the payroll. As you can see in 2011-2013, a higher payroll does not necessarily mean a higher total of wins. The fact of the matter is, although the Orioles were a high payroll team in the late 90's, as I'm sure they were a top ten attendance team, they are no longer a top payroll team. The Orioles are a mid-market team. Until the attendance increases, the payroll won't. Fans come to see wins, not players. The off-season isn't even over. What makes you think Angelos doesn't want win?

You make some VERY valid points and deserve Rep POINTS for the research, BUT there are other factors involved here that indicate PA has decided to "squeeze the last bit of juice out of this orange".

First, the deal he struck with MLB gives him a substantially disproportionate share of the MASN revenue which includes the Nationals broadcasts. Second, ALL of the teams are receiving an increase of about 25M or so in national TV broadcast rights this year. Third, during the MacPhail years the payroll dropped about a combined 100M with the public promise that the money would be spent when the team became competitive.

Even after MacPhail took over and the payroll plunged we did not make the kind of investments in developing our farm system that we should of to build a perennial winner. We're still not. The only to fix a system this broken and see sustained attendance improvement is to make an investment in the team. I don't mean ludicrous Cano or Ellsbury contracts; I mean spending what is necessary to fill the holes with ML talent and then solid depth. Right now, this team is a store with all of its inventory on the shelves and virtually nothing in the backroom. Sell off a piece and there's nothing comparable to replace it.

Peter Angelos desperately needs a midnight visit from the Ghost of Orioles' Teams Past to be reminded that enough money well spent will fill the park again.
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